Sunder- A Worthy Successor to H L Mhoram?/ Gov't of the Land

[Skyweir]

as are mine!! I have just jumped in at the rear end of the debate .. but are we truly discussing the usurpation of Revelstone as the seat of lore and power in the Land??

nay .. Revelstone will remain central to the Land .. in lore and in leadership .. Sunder however .. may have difficulty leaving Andelain .. I suppose thats where the discussion took off ..

mmm ... well so be it .. evenso .. who said Sunder would be the next High Lord .. and even if we are speaking High Lords .. we are speaking Revelstone .. which is at the very heart of that system of governing and leadership ..

Why Sunder and why not the giants .. or someone esle??

[I'm Murrin]

Murrin, I'm not so sure that the Unfettered One who had the initial vision lived during the Clave. My assumption is that he lived before samadhi corrupted the Council. I seem to remember a sentence about that first one seeing the Sunbane as a evil he could not describe - or something along that line.

Yes, but the Council became the Clave before the sunbane began. Samadhi infiltrated the council, and as a 'sign of respect' he renamed himself the na-Mhoram in honour of all Mhoram had done for the Council in his High Lordship. Does that sound like the action of a man in a world that had forgotten the Lords? No, the corruption of the legends and lore began there, culminating in the Sunbane some centuries later - at a point he was sure he could reasonably argue for the creation of the banefire. If there was a gap of a few hundred years, we could reasonably say that the Unfettered One gained his knowledge in that time - giving good reason for him to be an outcast, since he was the only person who remembered the truth of the past.

[Lord Mhoram]

Thank you Sylvanus and Skyweir! Someone agrees with me.. Heh.

A new Revelstone? There is no replacement for Revelstone...and I don't think a large group of people were ever meant to live in Andelain

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, as I've already said, we hold Revelstone for its return to glory.

I also think its possible that, no matter what some of the Land's people may think of Revelstone, when they go looking for anyone who might have power, and might be considered "in charge," they will go there. Where else would they go?

Of course, it's Sunder & Hollian's decision. They have the Staff, krill, and knowledge. But since they know what Revelstone was millennia ago, what it could be, and that the Haruchai are keeping it safe, I assume that's where they'll go.

That is, IF they can leave Andelain. Hollian said:

"Yet it is a fragile crossing withal, and uncertain. We are sustained, and in some manner defined, by the sovereign Earthpower of the Andelainian Hills. Should we depart this region, we would not long endure among the living."

But then we are told:

Linden saw that this was true. The strange gleam upon the Stonedownors was the same magic which had given Caer-Caveral's music its lambent strength. Sunder and Hollian were solid, physical, and whole. Yet in a special sense they had become beings of Earthpower - and they might easily die if they were cut off from their source.

Maybe the Sunbane was the only thing that would have cut them off from their source if they left Andelain. And even if that was not true, maybe they can use the new Staff as their source.

Speculation much?

[KaosArcana]

Murrin:

Damelon wrote:
Murrin, I'm not so sure that the Unfettered One who had the initial vision lived during the Clave. My assumption is that he lived before samadhi corrupted the Council. I seem to remember a sentence about that first one seeing the Sunbane as a evil he could not describe - or something along that line.


Yes, but the Council became the Clave before the sunbane began. Samadhi infiltrated the council, and as a 'sign of respect' he renamed himself the na-Mhoram in honour of all Mhoram had done for the Council in his High Lordship. Does that sound like the action of a man in a world that had forgotten the Lords? No, the corruption of the legends and lore began there, culminating in the Sunbane some centuries later - at a point he was sure he could reasonably argue for the creation of the banefire. If there was a gap of a few hundred years, we could reasonably say that the Unfettered One gained his knowledge in that time - giving good reason for him to be an outcast, since he was the only person who remembered the truth of the past.

Where do you get the idea that the Unfettered One was an outcast when
he set up the temple? I don't recall anything in the Chronicles to indicate
that.

[danlo]

Just a weird random thought. Probably doesn't really make much sense, but...Might the Elohim b useful, somehow, in aiding Sunder and Hollian's possible future movements outside of Andelian? As semi-ethereal beings don't they have, or seem 2 have, their own limitations 2 "physical" movement outside Eldemense do 2 their connection w/Earthpower? Obviously I don't have TOT in front of me right now b if, say, that were true they clearly had a means of allowing the Appointed(s) movement. I might b way of base, but what the hell...

[Damelon]

Here is Nassic's account of that first Unfettered One:

Briefly, Nassic's tone stabilized, as if he were reciting something he memorized long ago. "He built the temple as a place of welcome for you, and a place of healing, for it was not forgotten among the people of those years that your own world is one of great hazard and strife, inflicting harm even upon its heroes. In his vision, he beheld the severe doom of the Sunbane, though to him it was nameless as nightmare, and he foresaw that the Unbeliever, ur-Lord Illender, Prover of Life, would return to combat it. From son to son he handed down his vision, faith un-"

My own opinion is that this Unfettered One lived pre samahdi controlled council. That the story of the Unbeliever was still well known among "the people of those years" would to me date him, at the latest, in the very early stages of the infiltration of the Council. There is no indication of that first one being an outcast. That would seem to have come later.

[Lord Mhoram]

No, no that makes sense Danlo...they clearly can move away from their home, but Sunder and Hollian aren't Earthpower-incarnate, per se are they?

[I'm Murrin]

Ah, thank you, Damelon. It's been a while since TWL. The Unfettered One had his vision back when they remembered who TC was, what he did, and all his titles. I guess my last few posts here can be disregarded, then.

[Revan]

I definitely think Sunder could stand shoulder to shoulder with Mhoram

[Lord Mhoram]

Eh, it's still hard to compare two different heroes of two different eras.

[Skyweir]

i agree

and i do not see Sunder being on par with Mhoram

[danlo]

Their strange state between Life & Death seems 2 b upheld by Earthpower--so mayb the Elohim could help, mayb that combined w/the abberation of the Law of Death. But I doubt we'll see Sunder and Hollian in the 3rd Chrons...

[Fist and Faith]

I imagine the Elohim could do most anything they set their minds to. I doubt this idea would be a challenge to them at all.

[Lord Mhoram]

We'll probably see Sunder and Hollian as legends like we saw Mhoram. Though hopefully it'll be a more...accurate legend.

[Ryzel]

That is only if the third chronicles are set so long after the second that they have died and been forgotten.

No wait - they are already dead. How is this going to end.

[Lord Mhoram]

i agree

[Earthblood]

Damelon Wrote:

Quote:
Briefly, Nassic's tone stabilized, as if he were reciting something he memorized long ago. "He built the temple as a place of welcome for you, and a place of healing, for it was not forgotten among the people of those years that your own world is one of great hazard and strife, inflicting harm even upon its heroes. In his vision, he beheld the severe doom of the Sunbane, though to him it was nameless as nightmare, and he foresaw that the Unbeliever, ur-Lord Illender, Prover of Life, would return to combat it. From son to son he handed down his vision, faith un-"

A crazy thought came to me as I read this.

Could this Unfettered One actually be Mhoram himself?
Seeing visions of the future, understanding the 'hazards' of TC's world?

Call me crazy, but.....

[amanibhavam]

personnally I can't see Lord Mhoram building a temple to Covenant; they were friends; he understood Covenant better that anyone in the Land maybe with the exception of Foamfollower; he would have known that Covenant would not have approved of anything like that

I think it was years-years after Mhoram's death

[Skyweir]

yes i think you are right amy .. it is out of character for Mhoram