Kevin's Watch

I think you underestimate the importance of trade and the economy to the welfare of people. The only reason we're able to feed and clothe
as many people in the world as we do now is because people were
willing to invest the money required to develop the technologies to
do these things.

Oh, don't misunderstand me here. I don't have any degrees yet but it doesn't take one to appreciate healthy trade for a healthy economy. If I sound ungrateful for all the wonderful businessmen out there like yourself then I apologize

And before you say that we might be better off without technology,
consider: without it, you would never have had the opportunity to read
about the Land in the first place, and Thomas Covenant himself would
have been a lot worse off than he was without the help of the doctors
who treated him.

I would never dream of saying such a thing. Science is like religion to me. The thing about our economy that I oppose is the brainwashing by commercialism which is something The Land is without. We could do without the happy clown on tv that convinces our children that greasy burgers and fries are "fun to eat". The diabetes epidemic is proof enough of that. And billboards cause noise pollution.

"Do not forget- it is the caveman's fire that keeps you warm."
-from the play Christ is Falling: the Idiot Festival

thats really weird that last Kaos post was mine

Kaos wrote:Speaking for myself, I'd rather be a pet than a food source or beast of burden any day.

well that may be as it is .. but I thought we were discussing the inhabitants relationship with pets/animals. And it seems that the inhabitants of the Land were not inclined to 'own' pets .. per se

Kaos wrote:And you'll note that the Ramen did not approve of how the people of the Land rode the Ranyhyn.

clearly .. but another example of the respect the inhabitants seemed to have for their animal kin .. it was not their choice .. the choice was with the raynhin .. and that is very telling imho ..

Kaos wrote:We also see only a bare fraction of how the system works.

.. thats very true .. but enough to give us an inclination of the very existence of a workable system and how it functioned .. to some extent anyway.

Kaos" wrote:"Gee, if my parents had been on the
Council like a certain Mhoram I could name I might have passed my
tests too..."

here I think you miscomprehend the role of the Council .. those who were appointed as Lords of the Keep .. gave their service freely and it entailed great sacrifice. It wasnt a 'position' sought after as we may find in our world .. persons seeking a given position for the prestige and monetary reward involved.

It was an honour to serve on the Council .. and appointments do not seem to have been designated by the level of greed or ambition of the intended ..

Kaos wrote:I'd argue that the Giants gave Revelstone to the Lords in gratitude
for being given land

yes they were given Coercri and the very nature of the Giants .. in the 2nd chrons we see more so .. they were prepared to do their part to assist where the need arose ..
its a matter of attitude ..

Kaos wrote:From what Foamfollower said, the Giants had
plainly experienced lands where they had had to fight for survival,
so they knew they were fortunate to come to the good people of
the Land.

.. indeed and this is on point re: the subject of the discussion .. the inhabitants of the Land were good people .. supported in their goodness by an admirable system.

Kaos wrote:Where did you get the idea of representatives?

yes danlo thankyou for explaining this .. clearly I am not refering to the fact that those at Lords Keep were from a various sections of the Land .. not just one race .. so not just one ethnic/racial group reigned supreme over all others by the mere virtue of race or ethnicity ..

Kaos wrote:There were the Lords,
the people who did the actual work at Revelstone-- Gravelingas,
Hirebrands, cattleherders, etc-- but I don't recall seeing anyone with
any political power at Revelstone other than the Lords

.
exactly! I was not refering to our concept of political power .. and the Lords were made up of a cross-section of many of the racial groups of the Land .. particularly those who desired to enter the Loreseraat .. and learn the lore .. As you recall Lena - a stonedowner .. wished to undergo her own training at the Loreseraat ..

Kaos wrote:What makes you think it was sound?

umm .. because it seemingly functioned effectively .. and met the needs of the inhabitants

Kaos wrote:if they did a terrible job-- the people of the Land really had no more
say in how their government was run than the serfs of 19th Century
Russia.Basically, the Land seemed to operate under the Marxist creed as you paraphrased it, and as I'm going to paraphrase it: "From each according to his ability to each, according to his needs."A good concept but one that proved impractical in our world

mmm .. yet in the Land it did suffice but nothing is perfect .. nor would the Lords claim it to be .. nothing is .. even in the Land .. but they came real close .. didnt they?

Kaos wrote:Besides, we don't know what the Cavewights and other non-humans thought of how the humans ran things, do we?

thats a valid point .. we dont

a hundred thousand humble apologies Kaos!! it would seem the devilry is in me!!

methinks I clicked the edit button on your last post .. when I meant to select the 'quote' button .. and consequently deleted your original post .. I am so very sorry ..

some of your original post is quoted in mine if thats any recompense ..


sooooooooooo sorry ..

regarding this:

"Gee, if my parents had been on the
Council like a certain Mhoram I could name I might have passed my
tests too..."

I don't really see any type of elitism or favoritism here. I'm sure Mhoram worked as hard as all the other students/candidates at the Loresraat. A genetic predisposition clearly helped him: coming from stock that had, possibly, more "inate understanding" and ability 2 pass the tests. Who knows, mayb simply being in proximity 2 the Lord's mindmelds as a kid helped hone his ability in that regards. Such parentage, 2 so inherently devoted 2 meet the needs of the Land, could have clearly planted the seed (haha) 4 the developement of Mhoram's visonary powers.

But then u have other Lords like the lonely mountian stomping Prothall (from the Northron Climbs), Hyrim and Amatin who passed the tests all on their own.

danlo wrote:I don't really see any type of elitism or favoritism here

.. precisely!!

Its not like this world .. where the contemporary axiom or addage .. that -> "its not what you know but who you know" .. operates ..

We are talking the Land .. these people their ethos was honourable .. persons became Lords on their own merits .. not because of being privy to a silver spoon

its a completely foreign system .. to some .. it would seem

yes! Honesty and goodwill...cleary we look 2 our political leaders 4 such attributes...

Skyweir wrote: methinks I clicked the edit button on your last post .. when I meant to select the 'quote' button .. and consequently deleted your original post .. I am so very sorry ..

That's a relief to hear. For a sec I thought Kaos Arcana had gone a little and created an argument with himself!!!

You sure know how to keep things interesting Sky.

As to the topic of pets: I guess it is a matter of opinion whether or not our furry friends are kept as prisoners or invited to be part of the family. SRD may think that deserve their freedom and we keep pets for purely selfish reasons. If that's the case we have to remember that cats were first kept for mouse hunting and all other pets were first kept and bred for other purposes beside companionship. Over hundreds of years they became domesticated and now they can not survive in the wild so luckily we love them and keep them as part of our families. There is a downside of coarse. I once read that millions of strays and abandoned animals are put down each year and that really upsets me. We should be honored that animals will put up with us and desire to be near us.
If Elena had a faithful pet dog at her side would it really be a corruption of the Land?

lol .. yeah right

mmm .. indeed .. a completely foreign concept

(visions of Lassie biting her ankle under Rivenrock! "No mom! DONT DO IT!!!!" )

Elena says "Lassie fetch me my Staff of Law and we we'll go out for swim in Glimmermere"

visualises elena and lassie playing catch .. with her staff of law

go fetch girl!! oooh watch out for that bright blue flame!! .. ouch!! lol

fried collie!

mmm .. yummers!!

"Rover, be a good dog and fetch the krill for Lord Mhoram"

hehe LOL

now thats favouritism

I can't remember any dogs in the Land at all. Not in the whole series as a matter of fact. Someone help!!!

well me neither .. as for the Lassie reference .. we were being facetious

except for danlo who was being very very silly lol

I do believe that the only canines present were of the wolvish kind.

Hellfire:

Skyweir wrote:

methinks I clicked the edit button on your last post .. when I meant to select the 'quote' button .. and consequently deleted your original post .. I am so very sorry ..



That's a relief to hear. For a sec I thought Kaos Arcana had gone a little and created an argument with himself!!!

Hey, it wouldn't be the first time.

Anyway, I wasn't presuming nepotism in regards to Mhoram. I was
just pointing out that what we see of the people of the Land is that
they seem to be universally kind, generous, and completely lacking
in envy. The only bitter people we really see in the series are
Trell's family, and Triock, and we all know what happened to them.


It's easy to have a workable system when the people you're
dealing with are virtual saints.



Ryzel:

I can't remember any dogs in the Land at all. Not in the whole series as a matter of fact. Someone help!!!

I can't remember them either, Ryzel. Only foxes and kresh, actually.

Which goes to prove the Land isn't all paradise. A world without dogs
would be sad indeed, I think.

Skyweir, was it you who said that the system of the Lords was
sound because it seemed to work for the Land?

It occurred to me after reading that the actual governance of the
Land made it easier for Lord Foul to create the Clave. All he had to
do was corrupt the central authority at Revelstone, and the rest of
the Land was under his sway.

Maybe if the Lords had to work for votes we might have gotten
a loyal opposition to the na-Mhoram!