Kevin's Watch

I like to keep things simple. I was raised Catholic (not fundamentalist) and my kids are being raised Catholic. We are technically Catholic Pagans. Oddly enough, I find they do exist and we are not an abberation.

My philosophy that I tell my kids is that there is truth and beauty in all religions. I also insist that the respect ALL beleifs, philosophies, etc. They do not need to understand them or agree with them, but they MUST respect them. I wish everyone did this. The world would be a much more peacful place.

My kids have been to events ranging from various Christian experiences to Wicca to Buddism. I want them to learn to respect all beliefs instead of fearing what they do not comprehend.

duchess of malfi wrote:

Holsety wrote:Hmm, doesn't Dr Berenford say some stuff about being Christian at the end of LFB? I'm not really sure...

I would argue that showing one faith-healing group in LFB doesn't qualify as anti-christian propaganda, and as Duchess points out above that father terisa morgan worked for (can't remember his name ) was a good guy for sure. BUT I would guess SRD might have problems dealing positively with christianity due to his own negative experiences w/ it.

Yes, I believe Dr. Berenford says that he is a regular church attender in The Wounded Land. And he is certainly a very positive character - perhaps the only truly positive character in the "real" world.

I do not think that Donaldson has any problems with the Christians who care for the hungry, sick, and poor like the little pastor in Mordant's Need or in Dr. Berenford.

It is the people who are all loud talk about Christ and no positive action towards other people that he seems to have issues with.

Actually, I said "actively practicing their faith". Saying you go to church is not that. Actually portraying a church revival (did y'all forget about that chapter in "The Power That Preserves"?) does, as do the cultists.

I quite agree with your sentiment (all talk and no action), and don't doubt that SRD shares it as well. But nevertheless, his portrayal of people who take their faith seriously enough to live it as an expression of their faith, rather than just to be nice guys, is what I have a little problem with - and that only because those are the ONLY instances of actual portrayals of Christianity. They are negative. In general, if we talk about Buddhism, moderate Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, or other neo-paganism it is pretty much all respect and acceptance. What I perceive is a specific bias that sees Christianity as LESS deserving of respect, and Hoslety's posts make my point. If it's Christianity, the focus is always on the whackos, and NOT on the quiet ones living their faith.

Actually, I said "actively practicing their faith". Saying you go to church is not that. Actually portraying a church revival (did y'all forget about that chapter in "The Power That Preserves"?) does, as do the cultists.

The cultists are christians...? I mean, were they?

If it's Christianity, the focus is always on the whackos, and NOT on the quiet ones living their faith.

Oh come on now. Dr Berenford is hardly "quietly living his faith"; Berenford Med center was a product of his actions in making others who ignored the community's problems realize their mistakes and act on them.

I wouldn't say much about the MN priest one way or another because it's true he is a positive character but a SIDE character. Earthly religion doesn't play into MN because nearly everyone has no idea what christianity and whatnot are.

In general, if we talk about Buddhism, moderate Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, or other neo-paganism it is pretty much all respect and acceptance

Hmm, I don't know many people who praise the caste system created by hinduism much. Buddhism, though, is a prime example of a religion which is let off too easy and no one looks at the bloody history.

Holsety wrote:

Actually, I said "actively practicing their faith". Saying you go to church is not that. Actually portraying a church revival (did y'all forget about that chapter in "The Power That Preserves"?) does, as do the cultists.

The cultists are christians...? I mean, were they?

If it's Christianity, the focus is always on the whackos, and NOT on the quiet ones living their faith.

Oh come on now. Dr Berenford is hardly "quietly living his faith"; Berenford Med center was a product of his actions in making others who ignored the community's problems realize their mistakes and act on them.

I wouldn't say much about the MN priest one way or another because it's true he is a positive character but a SIDE character. Earthly religion doesn't play into MN because nearly everyone has no idea what christianity and whatnot are.

In general, if we talk about Buddhism, moderate Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, or other neo-paganism it is pretty much all respect and acceptance

Hmm, I don't know many people who praise the caste system created by hinduism much. Buddhism, though, is a prime example of a religion which is let off too easy and no one looks at the bloody history.

It is a given that Dr Berenford did good deeds. The only question is the connection between those deeds and his faith, which is barely alluded to. We are given no indication, internal or external, that there is any connection at all.
I do concede, however, that the cultists are not named as a Christian one. But even then, it is certainly not a positive portrayal of faith.

If it's Christianity, the focus is always on the whackos, and NOT on the quiet ones living their faith.

I am speaking not only of Donaldson's works, but of discussions on forums like this, media presentation, Hollywood, and even academia. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that discussions here tend to be solidly critical of Christianity while viewing eastern religions favorably (in the sense of open to what they teach).

I don't know many people who praise the caste system created by hinduism much. Buddhism, though, is a prime example of a religion which is let off too easy and no one looks at the bloody history.

This still makes my point. Other faiths are 'let off the hook' because they are exotic, because they are not familiar to us. On the other hand, most of us (and this also included me) grew up with Christianity around us in one way or another, so we are familiar with it to that extent. However, while we see the behavior of both Christians and self-professed 'Christians' around us, few of us have an adult (mature) understanding of Christian theology, so it automatically has this double strike against it - we think we understand it, whereas (for many of us) a lot of our understanding was attained as children and we actually don't fully understand what the faith is really teaching (what I refer to as a second-grader's version of Christianity). It doesn't help that a number of Protestant theologies of more recent origin have a correspondingly simplistic theology that make it easier to do this.) A simple example would be a typical understanding of the doctrine of hell. Why would a loving God create a place where He would 'send' many people (that He supposedly loves) to suffer in torment (whether literal fire or metaphorical) for ever and ever(presumably for making 'the wrong choice' in life)? That is so self-contradictory that the mind understandingly rejects it as false. And yet it is decidedly NOT the teaching of the churches that have a historical claim to be the continuously present Church established by Christ and His followers 2,000 years ago (The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches), and of many of the Protestant churches as well.

History can be presented with any slant you want. The question is, is this faith actually true or not? Does it describe the truth, both about me internally and about the universe? Does the key fit the strange shape of the lock of our lives?

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." - G.K. Chesterton, Chapter 5, What's Wrong With The World, 1910

russ,

Do you really think that Islam is portrayed and treated more favorably in the West, especially the United States and western Europe, than Christianity? I would seriously dispute such a claim.

Buddhism is not a religion! It's a philosophy! Anyone who claims their religion is buddhism needs to be slapped upside the head, then shot, then stabbed in the eye.

Far fewer attrocities have been commited in the name of philosophy than in the name of religion.

Emotional Leper wrote:Buddhism is not a religion! It's a philosophy! Anyone who claims their religion is buddhism needs to be slapped upside the head, then shot, then stabbed in the eye.

Far fewer attrocities have been commited in the name of philosophy than in the name of religion.

I could see you saying that about Theravada Buddhism as practised in Sri Lanka. But Mahayana Buddhism is certainly a religion - deities, worship of buddha, reliance on being saved by divinely enlightened people...

Exactly. Buddhism as it is primarily practiced is a religion.

Which just goes to prove that Religious Buddhists are not buddhists.

Well that's up for debate. In this thread (I think it was this one), we've brought up that morally questionable Christians are still Christians. It's almost impossible for us to say "Even though you say you are a Christian, you still can't be." If we do that, how do we define what a "Christian" is? Surely not strictly from Scripture, since religious texts are filled with arcane rules and the like. Anyway, this principle applies to Buddhists too I think. "Religious" Buddhists can be considered just as "Buddhist" as Gautama's original followers.

Even though they defy the commands of the person they worship? Specifically the one not to worship him?

Well, when did Christ dictate that he become a cult figure? Or that his mother should become the center of one, too?

rusmeister wrote:

duchess of malfi wrote:

Holsety wrote:Hmm, doesn't Dr Berenford say some stuff about being Christian at the end of LFB? I'm not really sure...

I would argue that showing one faith-healing group in LFB doesn't qualify as anti-christian propaganda, and as Duchess points out above that father terisa morgan worked for (can't remember his name ) was a good guy for sure. BUT I would guess SRD might have problems dealing positively with christianity due to his own negative experiences w/ it.

Yes, I believe Dr. Berenford says that he is a regular church attender in The Wounded Land. And he is certainly a very positive character - perhaps the only truly positive character in the "real" world.

I do not think that Donaldson has any problems with the Christians who care for the hungry, sick, and poor like the little pastor in Mordant's Need or in Dr. Berenford.

It is the people who are all loud talk about Christ and no positive action towards other people that he seems to have issues with.

Actually, I said "actively practicing their faith". Saying you go to church is not that. Actually portraying a church revival (did y'all forget about that chapter in "The Power That Preserves"?) does, as do the cultists.

I quite agree with your sentiment (all talk and no action), and don't doubt that SRD shares it as well. But nevertheless, his portrayal of people who take their faith seriously enough to live it as an expression of their faith, rather than just to be nice guys, is what I have a little problem with - and that only because those are the ONLY instances of actual portrayals of Christianity. They are negative. In general, if we talk about Buddhism, moderate Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, or other neo-paganism it is pretty much all respect and acceptance. What I perceive is a specific bias that sees Christianity as LESS deserving of respect, and Hoslety's posts make my point. If it's Christianity, the focus is always on the whackos, and NOT on the quiet ones living their faith.

Just out of curiosity have you ever actually read any books by Stephen R. Donaldson? In particular, the Mordant's Need duology?

Because the little pastor in Mordant's Need has his whole life revolving around helping others as an expression of his faith. And he is the only character with enough balls to stand up to a wealthy bully named Mr. Morgan. So you have a wonderful and very positive character whose entire life is an expression of love, courage, and faith.

So I really question once again if you have any clue as to what you are talking about when you make these blanket statements about Donaldson's writing and Donaldson's characters.

Lord Mhoram wrote:Well, when did Christ dictate that he become a cult figure? Or that his mother should become the center of one, too?

There's a difference between doing someone that has not been forbidden, and doing something that you have expressly been forbidden from doing.

Emotional Leper wrote:Even though they defy the commands of the person they worship? Specifically the one not to worship him?

There's a difference between doing someone that has not been forbidden, and doing something that you have expressly been forbidden from doing.

Since when was philosophy about obeying commandments anyway? A philosophy should be more open than religion to having its core tenets challenged and modified.

Simply following buddha's commandments would be akin to man-worship in my mind. It's like that whole problem with that orthodox jewish rabbi who people thought was the messiah. "No, I'm not the messiah" he says on his deathbed, and his followers say "well, if he was the messiah, would he have said yes?"(if anyone has his name that'd be awesome, think he lived in NYC).

[sarcastically inserts stock insult about christians being idol-worshippers]

But even then, it is certainly not a positive portrayal of faith.

Hmm, if we're looking for positive portrayals of faith in general I would say that Mhoram is a perfect example. He has an incredible dedication to his beliefs but is also not immune to doubt or hesitation.

I would say there's a lot of christianity in berenford's actions. As SRD put it (when talking about the gap series):

To the idea that "nobody [in the GAP books] seems worth redeeming," my instinctive reaction is: Would Christ have said that?

The christians in TPTP say that covenant's leprosy is his fault; Berenford forgives covenant and looks at himself and the rest of the community. Who is practicing christian belief in their actions? He associates leprosy with christ's suffering...how is he not overtly, obviously Christian in his actions and in his thoughts?

However, my favorite argument is that Lord Mhoram and Covenant are obviously Jewish, which is very empowering for me because Mhoram is so kick ass. Both feel that saving a single girl at the possible expense of the entire land is not an unworthy choice.

In Judaism, life is valued above almost all else. The Talmud notes that all people are descended from a single person, thus taking a single life is like destroying an entire world, and saving a single life is like saving an entire world.

I should photoshop my avatar and give lord "mormon" a yarmulke for god's sake.
EDIT-Oh snap I'm challenging the all mighty Fantasy Bedtime Hour's interpretations of TCTC...I might be silenced shortly by Jenn.

Holsety wrote:

Emotional Leper wrote:Even though they defy the commands of the person they worship? Specifically the one not to worship him?

There's a difference between doing someone that has not been forbidden, and doing something that you have expressly been forbidden from doing.

Since when was philosophy about obeying commandments anyway? A philosophy should be more open than religion to having its core tenets challenged and modified.

Simply following buddha's commandments would be akin to man-worship in my mind. It's like that whole problem with that orthodox jewish rabbi who people thought was the messiah. "No, I'm not the messiah" he says on his deathbed, and his followers say "well, if he was the messiah, would he have said yes?"(if anyone has his name that'd be awesome, think he lived in NYC).

Are you talking about Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the most recent Lubavitcher rebbe? Since I attend the local Lubavitch Center for worship, it sounds like what I've seen there.

Holsety wrote:[sarcastically inserts stock insult about christians being idol-worshippers]

But even then, it is certainly not a positive portrayal of faith.

Hmm, if we're looking for positive portrayals of faith in general I would say that Mhoram is a perfect example. He has an incredible dedication to his beliefs but is also not immune to doubt or hesitation.

I would say there's a lot of christianity in berenford's actions. As SRD put it (when talking about the gap series):

To the idea that "nobody [in the GAP books] seems worth redeeming," my instinctive reaction is: Would Christ have said that?

The christians in TPTP say that covenant's leprosy is his fault; Berenford forgives covenant and looks at himself and the rest of the community. Who is practicing christian belief in their actions? He associates leprosy with christ's suffering...how is he not overtly, obviously Christian in his actions and in his thoughts?

However, my favorite argument is that Lord Mhoram and Covenant are obviously Jewish, which is very empowering for me because Mhoram is so kick ass. Both feel that saving a single girl at the possible expense of the entire land is not an unworthy choice.

In Judaism, life is valued above almost all else. The Talmud notes that all people are descended from a single person, thus taking a single life is like destroying an entire world, and saving a single life is like saving an entire world.

I should photoshop my avatar and give lord "mormon" a yarmulke for god's sake.

*wicked grin*

Why the hell not?

Holsety wrote:EDIT-Oh snap I'm challenging the all mighty Fantasy Bedtime Hour's interpretations of TCTC...I might be silenced shortly by Jenn.

*sigh*

I have so got to see more of that show...

The Buddha said not to worship him when he was gone, because when he was gone, he would really be gone, and to work out our own salvations with diligence.

Anyone who claims to follow the Buddha's teachings cannot claim such with sanity or rationality if they ignore that, among other things, which they do in praying to the Buddha or to any God for help in achieving enlightenment.

Religious Buddhism is of the same sort of Absurdity as Discordianism, without the redeeming quality that Discordianism doesn't take itself that damn seriously.

So then by that logic, any Jew or Christian who covets their neighbor's wife or any Jew or Christian who lies is not really a Jew or a Christian. After all, God expressly told them not to.

Lord Mhoram wrote:So then by that logic, any Jew or Christian who covets their neighbor's wife or any Jew or Christian who lies is not really a Jew or a Christian. After all, God expressly told them not to.

No. I'm talking about things real human beings have said. Not someone's imaginary friend, whether it's mine or someone else's.

Okay then. Christ said (not an imaginary person, right?) "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Christians, like everyone else, violate that every day of their lives. By your logic, none of them has the right to call themself a Christian. See what a slippery slope you've created here?