Kevin's Watch

Hey FnF

It just occurred to me while I was reading the other posts too. Maybe I'm dumber than I thought but it didn't seem obvious to me the TIW either.

well i am shocked .. and you call yourselves TCTC fans!!

LOL .. jk ..

well i cant guarentee its in TIW .. but i know i read it and it may have been a conversation between Mhoram and TC .. but will not wager my life on it

Ive been thinking more about how to use the Power of Command - and been reading everyones excellent posts! - and it now seems obvious to me that Donaldson is, yet again, exploring a paradox here. Just like TC with his Ring, the Earthblood is a force to great to be used.

caamora:

Actually, I believe that at the end of WGW, TC says to Linden that Foul can never be killed - just defeated, or weakened. But, of course, that is about 4000 years in the future from TIW!

As I said, Covenant is ambivalent about it ... and being dead doesn't
automatically make you right. 'Cause we had a whole passle of
High Lords screaming out for Foul's blood at the end of _The Power
That Preserves, and they obviously beleived he could be killed.

I wonder what will happen to Foul though? Maybe the Arch IS broken,
and he becomes one with the Creator once more who finally accepts
his own capacity for Despite.

Foul's powers and abilities are almost entirely unknown. He was an Old Lord, so we might think that he could use Earthpower the way the others did. But we never see him use it. He only uses the Illearth Stone. Everything else he did seems to have been in the way of manipulating everyone. (Mhoram said that the Ravers "fell swiftly under the mastery of the Despiser." Hard to tell if anything other than manipulation was used.)

Anyway, I have to think that Foul is subject to at least some aspects of Earthpower. He can't ignore it entirely, or the Ritual of Desecration wouldn't have effected him at all. And so I wonder if Commanding the Earthpower to imprison him could work. Maybe a Command as simple as that would suffice, if the Earthpower knows how to accomplish the task. Or maybe more thought would need to go into it, to tell the Earthpower how to imprison him. Maybe form a sphere of eternal Desecration around him. Since it hurt him at the Ritual, he might not be able to get through it.

I'm with you F&F!! I cannot believe that I didn't see that also, Sky and Kin! I never made that connection. Oh my gosh!!!



I like you analogy of the third chrons, Kaos!!

Caer Sylvanus wrote:A forestal can leave his or her forest (like Caer Caveral did), but it is a sad thing.

The Emissary is quite right that Caer-Caveral left Morinmoss for Andelain for a very sad reason - the erosion of Morinmoss. But that does not mean that the Forestaal can "venture out from the confines of their particular forest" only for sad reasons. The ability is there.

(And thank you, my lady Infelice, for using the term Forestaal! )

A big hello to everyone at this fabulous forum! I shall remain nameless, as I cannot successfully register at this wonderful place. You don't like Canadians or something? (Just kidding..) Anyway, my thoughts on the Power of Command:

It's like a genie granting a wish, isn't it? Or the Devil offering anything you want, never mind the details. What human being wouldn't be blind-sided by such an intoxicating feeling of almost limitless power? I don't blame Elena, I grieve for her.

If I was in her place, assuming I could even think clearly, I might want to use the Power to kill the Ravers--and I mean completely eradicate their existence. Ordinarily, you could only slay the physical body that a Raver possessed at the time, not the Raver-spirit itself, although it would still suffer. But the Power of Command is not an ordinary thing: it might have the "authority" to utterly end them. Unlike their master, Lord Foul, the three Ravers are born of the Land; they did not come from outside the Arch of Time, therefore a Command ought to affect them. So why not use this Power to end forever the threat of the Ravers? Under Lord Foul, the Ravers committed the most appalling evils against the Land. So why not use the Power of Command to exact payment for their crimes? Commanding the extinction of the Ravers would be like capital punishment of the highest order. It would certainly please the Forestals!

It's all moot, of course. Donaldson was clearly using the Seventh Ward to illustrate the seductive and illusory nature of power. The Seventh Ward is ultimately a futile hope, its potential never fulfilled. Just as Kevin's and Elena's dreams of ending the Despiser went unfulfilled.

Whew. Thanks for your time, and take care...

is this Juntel?????

well you dont exactly sound like Juntel .. but Juntel is Canadian .. and we love Canadians at the Watch ..

well to be completely honest .. we havent really had any Canadians here since Juntel .. but it was so great having that Canadian .. that all are welcome ..

now Juntel is persona non grata ..

so you're not Juntel are you .. ???

good comments btw

why on Andelain would Juntel be persona non grata?? what has he done?

Ah, the power of command. The mystery of the age, if you will

Well, I think there is probably only one command you can issue to the Earthpower, and I don't think violence (no matter how noble the aim) or destruction is any part of it.

Personally, I'd ask for the ability to understand Foul completely. Ok, so if you asked to understand a being of pure evil completely, you'd likely go insane. However, Foul is still, despite (no pun intended) his powers, human, and is motivated by human greed, anger and avarice. I think comprehension of Foul and his plans would help to forge a plan for the Land's mental and spiritual resistance.

It remains to be seen whether the Earthpower would have the focus to draw memory and personality from such a transcendent being, but anyway - that's what I'd ask it to do.

here's a thought...

The Power of Command is Kevin's seventh ward right?

He was by all accounts a bit wild, why didn't he use it? Could have saved the Land from desecration maybe...

Foul is still, despite (no pun intended) his powers, human

hmm, not sure we know that for sure Treb,

I'd dipsute it - I never thought he was human as we understand it. I believe he's the physical expression of the flaw that the Creator introduced into what he'd made.

I'd have to look it up (I don't appear to have the eidetic memory some of the people on here possess....), but he at least lived as a human, and the passage describing his physical appearance at the end of WGW also mentions his very human mannerisms and thought processes.

It's a big discussion, to be sure, but I am not sure that Foul is the flaw only, just as Cov isn't just the arch - he's still also a human being, with human thought processes.

Very interesting question about juntel...

I'm taking hamako's stance, though maybe a little stronger: Foul is most certainly not human. He is not motivated by greed, anger and avarice - human or otherwise - he is greed, anger and avarice. Most likely, he is the cause of all greed, anger and avarice in the Creator's world.

Yes, Foul had human form. I imagine this would be explained by the thought that the Creator made humans in his own image. And since Despite is the Creator's brother, whether he was originally a part of the Creator or not, Foul has the same form.

Although it could be that Foul only said that is his true form. Maybe he wanted Covenant to see himself too clearly, and have doubts of many kinds.

good gods F&F .. you're not Juntel are you??

Juntel is mia .. absent w/o leave .. well our leave .. lol .. wherefore art thou Juntel??

lol

this is the greater mystery .. forget about the power of command .. where the hell is the wayward Canadian

Well, well, that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...Juntel eh? I somehow suspect this is not the return of the Amazing Juntel, and in our haste to welcome an old friend, we forget to welcome a new one - be welcome and true, Guest!

But back to the discussion!..... I am adamant that Foul is not remotely human. I approve of the Haruchai name for him - Corruption - this, to me, expresses Foul's nature; he is almost a force rather than a living thing. He is evil incarnate, he existed before humans were created, and he will exist after they are gone. As F&F so astutely observed, humans are motivated by greed, malice, evil, whereas Foul is these things - it's his very nature...

With regard to the Power of Command, I'm inclined to go with the opinion that it could never really be used to any beneficial effect. The fact that it is the Seventh and final Ward of Kevin's lore doesn't necessarily mean it's the most valuable or useful - simply the most powerful and/or dangerous. Kevin knew of it's existence, and clearly it is better for the Lords to be aware of it than to be ignorant, but as the most dangerous source of power Kevin ever discovered, it had to be the last Ward - only when the New Lords were wise enough to know better than to use it should it be revealed to them.

I think the fact that Kevin chose the Ritual of Desecration over attempting the Power of Command says something about the wisdom of using it...

That's an absolutely PERFECT view of the Power of Command!!!