Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?

[Bannor]

If you read the last few pages of TPTP you'll come across some evidence that suggests the creator did not create our world. He states that when Covenant was taken to the hospital for the rattlesnake bite he was given antivenin, but was unsure as to what antivenin meant. If the creator did create our world, he would know what antivenin was.

That's an interesting theory, Ur-vile. If there's something Covenant hadn't heard of, the Creator did not create the world? Antivenin has been around since 1895 (at least). I must not understand what you're saying. Please elaborate. Thanks.

[CovenantJr]

I think Ur-Vile means the Creator didn't know what antivenin is.

"They bore you to the hospital for treatment. This treatment employs a thing which the Healers of your world name 'antivenin' "

Ur-Vile was (I believe) proposing that if the Land's Creator also created our world, he would know what antivenin is...

Unless he is an inattentive Creator when it comes to his wayward offspring - our Earth

[Loredoctor]

Apologies everyone for my confusing writing! It was late in the night when I wrote that. Covenant Jr is right: the creator was unsure of what antivenin is. If everyone thinks he also created our world why didnt he know that?

[Bannor]

Ah, I just misunderstood, Ur-vile, and your point is well taken. The Creator should have known what antivenin was. In fact, the Creator's assessment sounded like the old sic-fi shows in which the alien alluded to Earthly views like, "I am from the planet that you call Mars." (Now, I hope I get understood and don't sound too wacky!)

[fightingmyinstincts]

The Creator refers to it once as "Horse-serum", " made from the blood of horses", and says tc is allergic to it...and he also doesn't like horses. I know it's for reasons like they're dangerous, they're too high off the ground for him to ride without fear, they're too powerful or something, but it's still weird how even his body abhors horses...I think that's even the phrase the Creator uses, "your body abhors the horse-serum" or some such...oh well, just thought I'd mention it...

[Lord Mhoram]

The Despiser cant be Satan, the Arch of Time bounds him to the Land's earth.

[Skyweir]

mmm .. thats very true .. but therein lies a paradox .. he is supposedly bound in the earth .. and at the same time .. is able to influence the lives of others in our world ..

and all this when he is imprisoned within the bounds of the Creator's 'earth' .. perhaps his imprisonment is some kind of physical restriction .. but his essence or spirit is able to penetrate those bounds .. but not sufficiently as to loose the grasp of the AoT over him (he physically cant leave) .. but sufficient as to have some effect in our world ..

[Lord Mhoram]

Thats right.... how could he have appeared, though briefly, in the forest behind Haven Farm in TWL? He cant leave the Arch, right?

[danlo]

Maybe the blood from the altar fused, somehow w/the Sunbane creating a dimension doorway thru which Foul's image (like a projection) appeared and not nescessarily Foul himself--a cable transmission! Maybe not--- **reels in VERY long fishing line**

[Skyweir]

Well I'll bite .. I like that notion .. a dimensional doorway .. the hows and wherefores are interesting speculation .. but I like the rationale ..

Foul couldnt have appeared physically at back of Haven Farm .. but a projection of his image .. could have

We also know Foul went through periods of intense regeneration and could be rendered relatively powerless .. impotent even .. The Satan of our world is not reputed to require flexi-time or days off .. to recouperate ..

.. I still hold the view that they are not the same character .. and yet they do share many similar traits ..

.. Here's a thought .. you think SRD maybe heard of the Satan/Lucifer character somewhere .. and wrote Foul in like manner??

mmm .. lets see .. 'An immortal outcast .. whose sole desire is the destruction and corruption of an earth of his nemesis' making?'



any bites?

[Bannor]

Here's a thought .. you think SRD maybe heard of the Satan/Lucifer character somewhere .. and wrote Foul in like manner??

mmm .. lets see .. 'An immortal outcast .. whose sole desire is the destruction and corruption of an earth of his nemesis' making?

I believe you have an excellent point there, Sky. Alike and yet different.

[danlo]

If Foul's image was what appeared it did flicker, somewhat in the fire--The Devil's TV set? Probably not! But of all the elements most associated w/evil in our world fire would have 2 b the easiest 1 though which 2 create the dimensional doorway...1 difference I do c btween Foul and Satan is that Satan was once 1 of the most favored Angels until he fell from grace--Foul is kinda the bad "back door" of the Creator's mind who slipped though the most vunerable part of C's ego in2 murk and mire of C's caldrons while he was admiring his handiwork. And even though Foul is part of the Creator's alter-ego, or brother, if u will--he seemed 2 b something C didn't xpect--and resented and tryed 2 get rid of, or @least control asap! In other words never privileged in grace but a nasty flaw in C's psyche that needed 2 b locked away in the attic like weird Uncle Ernie, or the Dunwich Horror!

[Skyweir]

I believe you have an excellent point there, Sky. Alike and yet different.

thankyou Bannor .. I think .. but yes sire .. alike yet different .. and thus .. not the same!!

However .. elaborating somewhat .. the two characters are as has been stated very similar .. and share many traits in common .. but as danlo astutely mentions .. Satan was a golden boy prior to his fall from grace .. and he isnt reputed to being a brother of our Creator but a son ..

And because of his being cast out he has the embittered desire and design to attempt the destruction of our Creator's plan and purpose and draw the spirit offspring of the Creator's away from him and gain followers for himself .. or something very much like that ..

So

• 1. LF and the Creator are supposedly brothers.
  2. LF wandered into the earth seeking to place banes in the Creators work.
  3. Animosity existed between the brothers from before the creation of the

earth .. presumably ..

And

• 1. Satan/Lucifer and God are reputed to be father and son
  2. Satan/Lucifer rebelled against his father and was cast down to the earth deprived of physical form as punishment for his rebellion
  3. Animosity existed between Satan and God seemingly since he was rejected by God.

Similar but subtely different ..

[Bannor]

Sky, I know of no scripture stating satan was a son of God. To my knowledge, Jesus is the only Son of God. satan was created by God as a ruling angel (OT) and was a member of God's council (inferred from Job 1:2). Like Lord Foul, he rules the planet he inhabits. Like you said, alike, but different.

[Skyweir]

you are right .. it is difficult to find support for this concept in the Old or New Testament .. but in Job 1:6 it talks about the devil ..

6. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them

.

Then in verses 7 and 8 that very peplexing conversation that God held with Satan re: Job ..

However from Job 1:6 above it can be inferred that Satan was one of the sons of God that came among him .. But you are right if this is not a tenet of your belief or faith .. it would be problematic to appreciate this assertion. I have always understood that Satan was one of Gods offspring/sons .. a favoured one .. till the rebellion in heaven ..

You see .. to me .. Lucifer's fall was so great because he fell so far .. in his rebellion known as the 'war in heaven' .. these verses relate to that very premortal 'war.'

Revelation 12:7-9

7. And there was a war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8.And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceivedth the whole workd: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In support of this being a premortal rebellion .. in Jude 1:6 and vs 13. it speaks of angels which kept not the first estate ..

6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day.

13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness for ever.

And interestingly in the 10th verse of Isaiah 12, Satan and his angels are described as the bretheren of those who triumphed over him ..

10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our bretheren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the expression bretheren referred to the fellowship of those who stood on the side of God .. but to me .. I have always cosnidered that this refers to the spiritual offspring of God as being bretheren/family ..

In Ecclesiastes 12:7 it says the spirit of man shall return to God who gave it .. In Hosea it says that "ye are the sons of the living God" .. In Malachi it says "have not all one father?" In Acts 17.. it says ..

29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silve, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

To me it is not sound to suggest humanity is related as a spiritual family unless humanity's beginnings were as part of this kind of family imo.

Thus being literal spirit children (sons and daughters - with Christ being the one notable exception being not only the son of God in spirit but also his physical offspring - 'in the flesh' as is often spoken) of a God .. and hence all humankind being part of that family and further to this was of the understanding that Satan was one of the sons of God that rebelled against him.

Anyway in two places already Satan has entered the conversation and has been related to in the same sentence with the words .. "son's of God" and "bretheren" .. but interpretation will differ depending on your pov .. so respectfully I leave this with you to to make of it as you will ..

Isaiah 14:12-14

12. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations!

13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregartion ..

14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

And in relation to the expression 'son of the morning'' in Job this concept is elaborated on .. in chapter 38:4-7 .. In this chapter God asks Job where he was when the foundations of the earth were laid .. and when the morning stars sang together and shouted for joy at the wonder of the earth of His making .. a very interesting few verses and chapter .. also ..

And regardless of your individual pov .. imo there are still significant differences between LF and the satan character of Judeo-Christian faith ..

[Bannor]

The phrase, sons of God, is often debated. One is that these sons of God had children with the "daughters of men." These were considered to be "fallen angels" Another interpretation is the intermingling of the lines of Seth and Cain. Even Christians are considered to be sons of God because they are the children of God (related by covenant). Jesus the only Son of God. Good research, Sky!!

[Bannor]

Just wanted to comment on some of the other scriptures, Sky.
The battle between Michael and satan must have been something. They were fighting over Moses's soul!
Brethren is an archiac plural (12th century) of brother, but is almost exclusively meant to be the members of a profession, society, or sect, or in this case, a group of angels. We are also brethren of a sort. We do all have one Father, God, but it doesn't make us the Son of God, but sons (and of course daughters) of God.
lucifer was called the son of the morning star because of the bright planet, Venus (I think) and by extension to satan as a fallen star (Luke 10:18; Rev. 22:16).
Like Lord Foul, satan deceived/deceives a lot of people.

[Skyweir]

I think it comes down to interpretation ..

Yes .. in the context you cite .. there is only one "Son of God" .. but this refers to a specific phenomenon .. as I understand it .. Christ was a 'son' of God in the spirit as we also are .. but was the only one to be 'physically' begotten of the Father .. unlike us who have both mortal mother and mortal father ..

but going back to the belief that we are all spirit offspring of the Father/Creator - God .. we .. then by implication become also his son's and daughter's (spiritually) .. surely.

If we were only spiritual bretheren because of entering into the covenant of baptism and accepting Christ as our personal saviour .. then it would be more like joining an elitist club for members than being a part of a all encompassing family ..

but I have no interest in furthering a debate that can not be useful to this discussion .. and where it is not really possible to find common ground .. as it really does depend on one's individual point of view .. and opinion .. the way one has been taught .. and what traditional beliefs one holds .. so I am happy to let this issue rest .. while maintaining my view that I hold, that to me LF .. is not the Satan of Judeo-Christian belief ..

[Bannor]

My apologies, Sky. I thought I was just commenting on what had already been posted. Religion is usually a touch issue. I hope you'll forgive me if I got off topic. There is some middle ground here though. I agree with you that LF is not satan.

[Skyweir]

No need for apologies

.. and as far as getting off topic that is half the fun .. and is often where the most interesting discussions lie

.. but some topics cannot be proven one way or the other .. no matter how resolute one may be .. or sure of ones facts .. it eventually comes down to individual interpretation and ones personal belief system

.. and I dont feel comfortable challenging another's personally held sytem of beliefs ..

.. thus it may be prudent at times to acknowledge those issues graciously and assign a basket appropriate for such topics .. you know 'the no win basket' or the 'going nowhere basket' lol

.. Its mostly comes down to speculation anyway .. and thats something we are all very good at ..