Kevin's Watch

sidpcobain wrote:

I really wish I didnt know that the good guys were going to win.

Are you sure they are? I'm not expecting a happy ending this time.

Me neither. The Land has been so messed up for so long… maybe SRD will just put it out of it’s misery. Although that would be depressing. …But am I the only one who will laugh if (at the end of the Last Chronicles), Covenant wakes up in the hospital and realizes that the ambulance/police car (from LFB) really did hit him, none of it was real, and he’s been in a coma for the last 20 or 30 years?

Okay, questions, questions, questions…

1) So Linden roused the Worm – supposedly not a good thing. But how long does it take for the worm to ruin everything? When Covenant almost roused the worm in TOT, I just assumed that if it woke up, it would screw everything up pretty quickly. But apparently, it can be countered – and the Elohim will possibly be devoured in the attempt. Now that it’s been roused, one would think that Linden and Covenant would play a significant part in dealing with it. But how much time do they have? Can they even get near the Worm in time to prevent irreparable damage from occurring? Or does it even matter where they are? – if Linden could rouse the Worm all the way from Andelain, how much difference does it make where they are when they try to counter it? Or are the Elohim just finally going to have to get off their @sses and deal with it entirely on their own?

2) Infelice addresses TC as the "Timewarden" and obviously recognizes the importance of that role (since she chastises Linden’s use of the staff because it weakens him). So did the Elohim always know that he was destined to become part of the Arch? If they didn’t know, I can’t help but wonder how they could have possibly missed something that important. After all, they seem to have some knowledge of future events, even if it’s somewhat distorted and/or incomplete. But if they did know, what in god’s name were they thinking when they tried to silence him? I know they believed he might destroy the earth, but if they knew he was supposed to join/become the AoT, how did they expect that to happen if he was basically a walking vegetable? Or did they assume that if Linden managed to stop Foul and the Sunbane all by herself, it would be entirely unnecessary for TC to become the Arch?

3) So Linden goes into Andelain to resurrect TC. Infelice freaks out, of course. But why did the wraiths think it was okay? What, exactly, do they know? And – correct me if I’m wrong – but wasn’t one of the dead Lords nodding his encouragement? Loric or Damelon? Do they realize what may/will happen?

4) Do you think Covenant will even be using his ring in the next 2 books? SRD says he had the Last Chronicles in mind when he wrote the 2nd Chrons. – I think he also said that he left a lot of things unanswered and/or set a lot of things up to be used later. And Covenant clearly states in WGW that he will “never use power again.” So, is he going to stick with that? Circumstances have obviously changed. And is it still dangerous for him to have the ring? One would think that (after being the AoT for about 3500 years) he’d have a pretty clear idea of how strong it was and how not to break it. And it’s not as if he has to be worried about waking the Worm anymore, since Linden’s already done it for him. But since he is the white gold and has been the Arch for millennia, does he now have a perfect understanding of how to use that power? If he does, doesn’t that make things too easy? (And god forbid anything should be easy -- if it would be easy for him, then of course, there will be some reason he has to refuse to possess/use the ring. Then Linden gets to keep it. Of course. Yippee...)

5) Why does Linden’s Staff damage/weaken the Arch? If wild magic is the keystone of the AoT and is not bound by law, why does the use of the SoL even matter? I assume the use of Berek’s staff didn’t hurt anything, so what’s the problem now? Granted, TC wasn’t part of the AoT when Berek was around, but I just don’t understand why the Staff affects him at all. I always got the impression that white gold was somehow stronger than Earthpower.

6) Infelice says that if Linden hadn’t stopped the Sunbane, the Land would have been destroyed and much harm would have befallen the earth. But she insists that the Elohim could, ultimately, have preserved the world. So… why didn’t they just go ahead and do it? I always assumed that they couldn’t do anything about Foul because they didn’t want to interfere or literally weren’t capable of countering the Sunbane. Well, looking back, they didn’t really seem to mind interfering in the 2nd Chrons., since they screwed Covenant up pretty badly and tried to dispose of Vain. And according to Infelice, they could have dealth with the situation if they’d had to. So… why did they go through all that crap, worrying about TC, if they could have dealt with it on their own? If they’d stepped up to the plate and helped out, Covenant might have chilled out a bit and been less likely to screw everything up.

7) And I’ve been wondering about this since ROTE came out: In the 2nd Chronicles, everyone – even the Haruchai – lost the ability to “see.” Only Linden is capable of truly seeing. I always thought that the Sunbane wiped out the Haruchai’s ability to see. And I really don’t see why it would have, since they lived in the mountains rather than the Land. Now, somewhere along the line, they’ve regained that ability – and Kevin’s Dirt doesn’t affect them the way it affects everyone else. So why exactly couldn’t they see during the time of the Sunbane? And why can they see now…? Sunbane affects them, Kevin's Dirt doesn't... Why? What's the distinction?

Okay, so that was a long post. And I haven’t slept much over the past few days, so I can’t tell whether those questions make sense… Ah well.

Here's a few of my thoughts:

3) Not just the Wraths, but also the Ranyhyn seem to support Linden's plan in Andelain. I think the Elohim simply don't know as much as they think they do.

5) I think wild magic is stronger than Earthpower. I don't think use of the new SoL alone harms the AoT, but when it's used along with wild magic there seems to be great risk. I don't completely understand this part.

6) The Elohim would've been completely powerless against the Sunbane. It was, after all, corrupted Earthpower, and the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate. As the Sunbane grew, the Elohim would've been consumed by it.

7) The Haruchai didn't completely lose their Landsight in 2nd Chronicles, but their sight was surpassed by Linden's percipience. Now, in the Last Chronicles, this has reversed, and their ability to see is greater than Linden's. It's the difference between the Sunbane and Kevin's Dirt.

Re: So did the Elohim always know that he was destined to become part of the Arch? If they didn’t know, I can’t help but wonder how they could have possibly missed something that important.


They didn't know. Go back to WGW and re-read Findail's words to TC just as he is about to enter the Banefire.

Anybody else wonder if the Insequent, meaning outside of time, are the creator's children from the initial creation myth in LFB? Their appearances are frequently accompanied by discussions of the stars, which I believe is what they were likened to in the myth.

Seppi2112 wrote:Anybody else wonder if the Insequent, meaning outside of time, are the creator's children from the initial creation myth in LFB? Their appearances are frequently accompanied by discussions of the stars, which I believe is what they were likened to in the myth.

I certainly have had that thought. Not necessarily that they're literally the creator's children but certainly that they are the race that features in that creation story.

..Seems to me the Big question is the last one asked in the book. What have you done?....What a great and grand expanse to contemplate in answer! To me the question is the POINT..She did something On Her Own,,for once.

Please remember Linden Loves a Dead Man..thats , rather incomplete I'd say. Thats her flaw..She hasn't " Lived" because she is giving her Love, to a dead man,and also.. giving her Love to a son,,who basically is non-reciprical in any real terms either,,,Not good or bad,, just simply, not...The relationship is non reciprical,,un productive. So , the Last Chronicles is about Her learning to Live..suffering the pains and the Joys,,discovering Herself thru the process.

The question,, What have You Done? is classic Donaldson..at one level a cliff hanger of an ending and at the same time, subtle potencies and theurgies give the question import to the magic within us all.....imho

Wow, I don't remember seeing you around in quite a while, lurch.

i don't think the Theomach is dead; rather, i think he planned the whole "ak-haru" mythos for the Haruchai so that he could "give up" his guardianship.

i think the Insequent view of the Elohim is accurate. the Elohim is like nature and they have no inherent sense of good or evil. rather, they just are what they are and will act as they seem fit - seen as blind arrogance by the Insequent. and, b/c of their nature, if Lord Foul can cast a shadow upon them, they would be fundamentally unaware of it and just accept it as part of themselves (hence their constant denials).

--
regarding the duel between Mahdoubt and the Harrow, i actually found it very interesting. i don't think the Harrow can travel in time (voluntarily) as that is not his "knowledge." for someone like the Theomach and Mahdoubt, i could conceive of them putting the Harrow in a time conundrum or loop (similar to what has been hinted as the final??? solution to Lord Foul) where he is "stuck" in time somewhere unable to pursue his goals and not merely just back in time somewhere to wait it out.

and to touch on another point raised, perhaps the Mahdoubt had a more intuitive (or passive) understanding of Time than the Theomach and thus, she waited for Linden (at Revelstone, and later had to leave to wait to bring her back to Revelstone). whereas, the Theomach has had a more active study of Time and he would pursue Linden to meet his needs.

--
as for the Insequent being the children of the Creator, i'm not sure. i'm not even sure the old man in the ochre robes is the Creator. (has that been discussed before?) i can only hope that the Insequent are further explained in the next two books.

Please remember Linden Loves a Dead Man..thats , rather incomplete I'd say. Thats her flaw..She hasn't " Lived" because she is giving her Love, to a dead man,and also.. giving her Love to a son,,who basically is non-reciprical in any real terms either,,,Not good or bad,, just simply, not...The relationship is non reciprical,,un productive. So , the Last Chronicles is about Her learning to Live..suffering the pains and the Joys,,discovering Herself thru the process.

And now, in the 'Real' world, she's dead--too little too late?

stormrider wrote: 7) And I’ve been wondering about this since ROTE came out: In the 2nd Chronicles, everyone – even the Haruchai – lost the ability to “see.” Only Linden is capable of truly seeing. I always thought that the Sunbane wiped out the Haruchai’s ability to see. And I really don’t see why it would have, since they lived in the mountains rather than the Land. Now, somewhere along the line, they’ve regained that ability – and Kevin’s Dirt doesn’t affect them the way it affects everyone else. So why exactly couldn’t they see during the time of the Sunbane? And why can they see now…? Sunbane affects them, Kevin's Dirt doesn't... Why? What's the distinction?

Earthsight is a gift of The Land. SRD has stated at some point (Don't really recall where) that in The Land, earthpower flows much closer to the surface than in the rest of the world, so it makes sense that only people who spend a long time in the Land will develop health-sense. Since the Sunbane pretty much fubared earthpower in the land, that is why none of it's denizens had it. Of course, shortly after the purging of the sunbane Health-Sense would return to the people of the Land. There is no reason to believe that the Haruchai ever had Health-Sense before living in the land for a long time, and while the Unhoomed would probably have it, Giants from outside the Land would not.

Good points, but I think the Haruchai probably first picked up Landsight when they swore the Vow and became Bloodguard.

Re: SRD has stated at some point (Don't really recall where) that in The Land, earthpower flows much closer to the surface than in the rest of the world, so it makes sense that only people who spend a long time in the Land will develop health-sense.

It would seem that one needs to actually experience active Earthpower to gain its Sight. The Land's human inhabitants were clueless until Berek's day, and FR shows how they begin to gain Health-Sight as Linden heals them with the Staff and hurtloam. (And an interesting counter-point to the First Woodhelven dwellers also gaining their healthsight later). In the 1st Chron TC also gained it after experiencing hurtloam and (in TPTP) the lomiliallor staff that Triock held. It makes me wonder if the people of the Land in the Lords' time had some sort of initiation for their children, or if the use of Earthpower was so common that they developed it "naturally" as they grew up. Only Linden seems have to the Sight as an innate gift, and Linden also seems to have it far more intensely than even the Lords did.

[ And now, in the 'Real' world, she's dead--too little too late?[/quote]

or rather.. classical Donaldson paradox..Like all paradox ..be careful of initial assumptions. ..and like most paradox..(hhmm,,is more than one paradox a triadox or maybe paradi or ..),,anyway , the way thru them is simply moving ahead and seeing what happens..The movement ahead ,,stirring the events of cause and consequences will bare the truth of the opposing and conflicted estates involved.Sheis moving ahead and the choices wil have consequences. That she took a bullet ,theauthor still teases us with the possibilty,that she still breathes in the real world.

The real paradox is,,inorder to live,,she has to stop giving all her love to a dead man and centering her life around a nonrecipricating son. She has to find Hope beyond them...Its a subtle but growing point in Last Chronicles,, that so much of the " action" takes place in the past..The future nobody is seeing..I suspect, when the the future is eventually accessed in the Last Chronicles..Hope is what will be found there,,and it will be beyond Convenant

Fascinating it is..that the author makes a statement about his son in the acknowledgement/dedications...to the effect,, that his son turned out pretty good..somebody his father is proud of..Thats a"future" of " hope" that I refer to when i say linden must find a Hope beyond Convenant and jeremiah.

Theomach wrote:i don't think the Theomach is dead; rather, i think he planned the whole "ak-haru" mythos for the Haruchai so that he could "give up" his guardianship.

The Theomach was already the Guardian of the One Tree before the Haruchai ever met - and got their asses kicked by - the Vizard. Before they had never met an Insequent. Or is it possible that the Theomach had met them without revealing anything about himself? Or maybe he only knew of them, from some other source entirely? To our knowledge, the only peoples who knew of the existence of the Haruchai before they marched into the Land and swore the Vow were the Insequent (at least the Vizard), and the Haruchai themselves.

Well, if the Theomach has power over time like the Mahbdoubt does (did,will, time travel makes tense pointless) There is no reason to believe he didn't know exactly what he was doing. After all, he knew who Roger, the Croyel, and Lindon were some 8000 years in the past.

Like I think I have stated, we arent at all sure how the insequent and the Elohim even experience time. I am imagining for the Theomach and the Mahbdoubt (and probably the Vizard) that time works like it does for Doctor Manhattan in the Watchmen (Having read this will help). That they have knowledge of the future, but with that knowledge they have only a limited power to affect it. The Theomach's mastary seems to be such that he is able to shape the destiny of the world, which would explain why the other Insequent unanimously agree he is the greatest.

And I also think he threw the fight If he is capable of teaching Berek earthpower and forging the first staff of law, he is certainly capable of more similar manipulations of the Land's destiny. I am absolutely positive we have not seen the last of him.

Yes, he certainly threw the fight! I try to explain it all here:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=125503#125503


All this about the Theomach becoming the Guardian is beyond confusing, eh?!? It happened in Berek's day, but the Theomach who did it is the one from Stave's day. He went back in time and became the Guardian. Then, apparently, he told the Vizard of Berek's day about it. "Hey, it's me, Ken. But from the future. I just came back and became the Guardian of the One Tree. Tell the Haruchai when they come to your hut, would you? I want to test them when they show up here."

Something I've yet to see discussed - and I wonder if it'll come up in AATE: Covenant's specific statement at the end of WGW that he didn't want to be resurrected. I understand that was in reference to the Cavewights trying to bring back Drool and that Covenant didn't want to be brought back as something monstrous. The point still stands, though, that Covenant said, "Don't bring me back."

And that's just what Linden has done.

As a reader, I'm delighted that TC is back (though annoyed that it's taken half of the last Chronicles to do so). But I'm curious to see how it plays out within the story and characters.

that was a great point Aranion!!!!!!!!

Fist and Faith wrote:

Theomach wrote:i don't think the Theomach is dead; rather, i think he planned the whole "ak-haru" mythos for the Haruchai so that he could "give up" his guardianship.

The Theomach was already the Guardian of the One Tree before the Haruchai ever met - and got their asses kicked by - the Vizard. Before they had never met an Insequent. Or is it possible that the Theomach had met them without revealing anything about himself? Or maybe he only knew of them, from some other source entirely? To our knowledge, the only peoples who knew of the existence of the Haruchai before they marched into the Land and swore the Vow were the Insequent (at least the Vizard), and the Haruchai themselves.

what do we know about the Haruchai origins? i don't think SD has addressed this (or if he has, let me know).

just pure conjecture but, i can see the Theomach "elevating" a hardy, but still undisciplined mountain race into becoming the Haruchai. (much like he did with Berek, et al). so, at that time, he could have not been recognized, or in disguise, or have worked through another... like the hint through the Vizard. in that elevation, he could have created the Ak-haru mythology (like the Unfettered with Berek) and set in motion their inevitable path to the Vizard and then to the Guardian... to what?

in addition, is it impossible for the Theomach to occupy the same time more than once? that is, could he be the Guardian of the One Tree while still running around doing other things? are all the Insequent really just aspects of one being? (heh, maybe that's stretching it )

also, i'd guess that the Elohim were aware of the Haruchai as they seem to be relatively omniscient. and Lord Foul (and through him, the Ravers). heck, i may even throw in the Demondim/Viles/Ur-Viles/Waynim/Croyel as they seem to know a lot more than they care to reveal. but, their awareness doesn't necessarily mean they were interested as the Insequent are. but, as you say, we don't know if that's true. one thing that the 2nd and last chronicles have done, for good or for ill, is that it has diminished the Land in some ways as the "center" of the battle between good and evil (Foul and Covenant).