FR First Impression

[Seppi2112]

All I'm saying Malik, is that for all we know its the same situation... we have absolutely no idea where SRD is going with this. He has TWO books to go, and all we know for a fact is that Foul is to be confronted and Jeremiah saved (presumably). Who are we to say at this point what is contrived and what is necessary??

[Seareach]

Who are we to say at this point what is contrived and what is necessary??

agreed.

[Zarathustra]

All I'm saying Malik, is that for all we know its the same situation... we have absolutely no idea where SRD is going with this. He has TWO books to go, and all we know for a fact is that Foul is to be confronted and Jeremiah saved (presumably). Who are we to say at this point what is contrived and what is necessary??

Whatever comes later, it can't change the fact that Linden wouldn't have gone with Roger if she had been told who he was. The journey of part 1 depends entirely upon this contrived ignorance. That ignorance wasn't necessary, because Esmer or Mahdoubt could have told her. Donaldson has already given justifications for them withholding this information. But those justifications don't reach the level of necessity, because they can't possibly be more important than the risk of ending the world. And I think this also precludes any additional justifications in future books. What could possibly make Linden's ignorance more important than the end of the world?

The only sense in which Linden's ignorance was necessary was in "writer need." It was included in order to get Linden at MS in the past--because Donaldson required her to go there for story-telling purposes; Donaldson "needed" her to go there (for whatever reasons; probably personal preference), even if the story itself didn't require it. Now, he might have deeper reasons for sending her there--the Runes, for instance--but as I've shown already, the Runes could have been given by an Insequent. So there's nothing necessary about that, either. I think he just thought it would be cool.

In addition, he "needed" to toy with our Covenant expectations by preserving the possibility that Roger could have been Covenant. That illusion was aimed as us as well. And if Linden had been told the truth early on, then we'd know it too. Those two reasons, I believe, are the reasons why Linden was kept in the dark. Any other justification by the author is created after the fact in order to achieve those two effects.

[Aleksandr]

Re: The journey of part 1 depends entirely upon this contrived ignorance.

You can say the same about the entire Quest for the One Tree in the 2nd Chronicles. Or for that matter Elena's Quest for the Earthblood. If those involved had had been told what was really going on those journeys would have been unnecessary (and a good deal of pain and misery avoided as well). Caer Caveral, the Dead and the Wayhim could have spared Covenant the Quest for the One Tree, and Amok and the Bloodguard could have told the Lords what the Seventh Ward really was all about.

[Zarathustra]

Re: The journey of part 1 depends entirely upon this contrived ignorance.

You can say the same about the entire Quest for the One Tree in the 2nd Chronicles. Or for that matter Elena's Quest for the Earthblood. If those involved had had been told what was really going on those journeys would have been unnecessary (and a good deal of pain and misery avoided as well). Caer Caveral, the Dead and the Wayhim could have spared Covenant the Quest for the One Tree, and Amok and the Bloodguard could have told the Lords what the Seventh Ward really was all about.

Hmmm, seems like we've done this before. You really think Covenant would have refused to go to the One Tree if his Dead had told him that he didn't really need an actual branch, but instead he needed to trigger Vain's transformation process? I think he would have still went, because it would still have fulfilled his goal to restore the Staff.

Do you think Elena would have changed her mind if someone (who?) would have told her that it might backfire? Remember, that plan didn't have to backfire. She could have just chosen a different Command. Either way, she still would have went and made the attempt no matter what. Knowledge that the Command was dangerous wouldn't have stopped her. She knew the 7th Ward was hidden because it was dangerous. And while it's true that her ignorance was contrived by Kevin (he set up criteria for Amok to appear, and the criteria for Amok to lead the way), it was contrived for exactly the same reason why Esmer and Mahdoubt should have told Linden the truth: going to the Earthblood is inherently dangerous. Even more so when you take into account Roger's plans. So in Elena's case, the contrived ignorance makes perfect sense, works to protect the earth, and wouldn't have ended the story or stopped the characters if revealed. On the other hand, Linden's ignorance makes absolutely no sense, endangers the earth, and would have stopped her if she'd known. Completely, 180 degree opposite examples.

[Seareach]

You could argue that even if someone had said "hey, that's not Roger" that in the process of trying to find out whether Jeremiah was actually Jeremiah (or whether he was being held against his will by Roger...or what ever), that Linden would still be "abducted" by Covenant (aka Roger) and Jeremiah leaving her stuck in the past...leading us to a whole different course of events but perhaps with the same outcome as we get at the start of part 2 of FR (that Linden begins her descent into "darkness" and the Mahdoubt returns her to present time). It'd be a whole different story...but a story nonetheless. Any number of things could have happened.

But that's not what happened.

Personally, I think Aleksandr has a point. You could call certain events in the First and Second Chronicles "contrived". I don't think you can argue that if Covenant or Elena knew certain truths they would have still gone on the journeys they did. It's a moot point. You can't *prove* they would have done anything of the such. Just like you can't prove that if Linden had known the truth about Covenant and Jeremiah that she wouldn't have ended up still in a similar situation, stuck back in the past.

I think there's nothing wrong with the story as it stands: the Mahdoubt states that she feels Linden had to go on the journey she did in order to become the person she has become. I believe in that philosophy and why the Mahdoubt does not interfere. It's like what we do with our children: we let them make mistakes because it helps them learn, become stronger, allows them to grow as human beings.

Until we read the last word on the last page of The Last Chronicles no one will know whether that journey into the past was really necessary or not.

I think the use of the word "contrived" in all the examples given is subjective.

[Zarathustra]

I think the use of the word "contrived" in all the examples given is subjective.

It's not at all subjective. All of this is an invention by one man. So in a sense, it's all "contrived." But I'm not arguing that this is what makes it bad. Given my post above, it's obvious that I think contrived, purposeful limits on knowledge was used to good effect elsewhere in the Chronicles, and in the Gap series especially. Maybe we should get away from this word because it has negative connotations on its own which are clouding the issue. The fact that Donaldson made it up isn't the issue. The issue is that it doesn't seem to make sense, doesn't seem to treat the characters fairly, and seems necessary merely to have a cool adventure.

I admit that I might be proven wrong on all my criticisms by later books . . . except for this one criticism: nothing about Linden's ignorance could have been worth risking the end of the earth, not when it could have so easily been avoided. Resolving that problem can't be done by writing a new plot twist. It can only be done by revealing something about her ignorance worth more than the entire world and all its inhabitants. That's a value judgment, not a plot twist. And if Donaldson is making that particular value judgment, I'm not sure what kind of story I'm reading anymore.

[Seareach]

I think the use of the word "contrived" in all the examples given is subjective.

It's not at all subjective. All of this is an invention by one man. So in a sense, it's all "contrived." But I'm not arguing that this is what makes it bad. Given my post above, it's obvious that I think contrived, purposeful limits on knowledge was used to good effect elsewhere in the Chronicles, and in the Gap series especially. Maybe we should get away from this word because it has negative connotations on its own which are clouding the issue. The fact that Donaldson made it up isn't the issue. The issue is that it doesn't seem to make sense, doesn't seem to treat the characters fairly, and seems necessary merely to have a cool adventure.

I admit that I might be proven wrong on all my criticisms by later books . . . except for this one criticism: nothing about Linden's ignorance could have been worth risking the end of the earth, not when it could have so easily been avoided. Resolving that problem can't be done by writing a new plot twist. It can only be done by revealing something about her ignorance worth more than the entire world and all its inhabitants. That's a value judgment, not a plot twist. And if Donaldson is making that particular value judgment, I'm not sure what kind of story I'm reading anymore.

You appear to be changing your argument now, as I certainly got the impression you were using the word "contrived" to imply something negative (and I don't think I was the only one to get that impression). See your first post in this thread and the context in which you use the word. I am happy to go with the "everything is contrived because it's a product of Donaldson's imagination" definition, but in my opinion that's moving away from one of your original, shall we say, "gripes".

Regarding the whole risking the Earth thing. How can you be sure that there's not going to be a plot twist, that the answer can only be a "value judgment"? So you know what's going to happen in the last two novels? I certainly don't!

Then again, given the multiple layers of this novel and the underlying themes, maybe it will come down, to some degree, to value judgments. If that were the case, what kind of story would you be reading: what the Chronicles have always been--a demonstration of high fantasy at its best where everything that happens is a "platform" (so to speak) for other, deeper and more complex, themes.

[Zarathustra]

You appear to be changing your argument now, as I certainly got the impression you were using the word "contrived" to imply something negative (and I don't think I was the only one to get that impression).

Sorry, I thought I was clear. Obviously I wasn't. I did mean something negative; it was a gripe. But it was a gripe due to how Donaldson used it in this instance, not in general. I'm not "changing" my argument; I'm merely pointing out other times where Donaldson used manufactured ignorance well (with Elena, with Covenant, with Warden Dios). And it's impossible to point this out without admitting that "contrived" isn't always bad.

Regarding the whole risking the Earth thing. How can you be sure that there's not going to be a plot twist, that the answer can only be a "value judgment"? So you know what's going to happen in the last two novels? I certainly don't!

I can't be sure there won't be a plot twist. In fact, I'm pretty sure there will be. But if it is going to account for Linden being kept in the dark about Roger, by the people who knew, then it must do so in a way that places more value on her ignorance than on the existence of the earth. It doesn't take me being able to see the future to deduce this. If Linden's ignorance wasn't more important, then the earth was risked for something less important . . . which is even worse. Either way, it's bad. But those are the only two possibilities--unless the earth was never in any danger by Roger drinking the Earthblood. And if that's the case, it completely dissolves any dramatic power out of that scene, making it even more unnecessary.

Then again, given the multiple layers of this novel and the underlying themes, maybe it will come down, to some degree, to value judgments. If that were the case, what kind of story would you be reading: what the Chronicles have always been--a demonstration of high fantasy at its best where everything that happens is a "platform" (so to speak) for other, deeper and more complex, themes.

True, Donaldon's stories have always had value judgments. And there have certainly been plenty of "risking the earth for something more important." For instance, Mhoram trusted Covenant despite the fact that he could save OR damn the earth. In this case, trusting the one person who has power to save it was more important than the risk of damning it. Again, in FR, the Dead in Andelain thought that Linden's freedom was more important than the fate of the world, because if she wasn't free to choose on her own, then (I assume) her power to save the Land would have been limited. However, freedom and trust aren't the same thing as ignorance. Linden being tricked deprives her of freedom, and exhibits a lack of trust because they didn't trust her with the knowledge of the full stakes.

[wayfriend]

Hey hey hey ...

You're both right, you know. FR is full of things that feel contrived (by which I mean: not unfolding in a natural way). It may have turned out to be necessary in the end. But if it doesn't feel necessary when you read about it, the first time you read it, then the author didn't do one of his jobs.

- - - - - - - -

I haven't chimed in on my "first impressions" yet, but overall I found FR to be too much like Runes for my taste. Because I was expecting, now that Runes had set everything up, for the story to be done with setting up and well into the moving forward. Instead, I found FR to be a lot more setting up.

Introduction of still more characters and races. Introduction of more mysteries and more unguessable agendas. Very little resolution to questions raised in Runes. And everything leading up to --- yet again -- Thomas Covenant appearing on the last page. And, most importantly, there is no clear idea yet of what Linden and Covenant need to do.

As I said in another thread, I called the battle in Sons "The Battle of Five Incomprehensible Armies." Everything except the kitchen sink was thrown in. The man who wrote about Soaring Woodhelven and Lord Mhoram's Victory and the Grim was not present here, nor later on fighting the skurj. He should have known we would not be stunned by numbers alone.

And, yes, Linden's invocation of Nom was a wasted moment. I guess, after WGW, it was rather a letdown. It was sharing the stage with too many other things happening. I can totally see how the same battle could have been written to make the Nom moment a thing of awe, but it wasn't.

Like Runes, I am sure that this story will grow with me over time. And there are lots of parts that I like. And lots of others (that I'm not mentioning yet) that I didn't. When I go back and re-read Runes, I may change my opinions some; I expect to.

[I'm Murrin]

My first impression, having finished the book a minute ago (I started browsing this forum with a few chapters to go, because the ending had already been quite thoroughly spoiled for me before I began).

First of all, the first half of this book is great. I would have said it is almost as good as the First Chrons were. The problems mostly seem to lie in the second half which, while still good, doesn't quite hold the same. Perhaps that is because it doesn't resonate as well with earlier Chrons novels as the first half did; and some of it is certainly the jumbled mix of incredibly powerful beings and massive confluences of power that occur.

If the book has any flaw, it is--as has been noted before--that it is filled with... conveniences. Less of them, once again, in Part One, where they only occur as pertains to Covenant's identity: Linden repeatedly refuses to realise that someone has hinted in an incredibly unsubtle way that he is not Covenant. When the Theomach threatens to "introduce" "the Halfhand", it should have immediately made her realise that he would not intoduce him as "Thomas Covenant". Yet not one second of thought passes over that exchange, even to excuse her dismissal of it--she behaves as if she didn't hear it at all. Again, when the Theomach refers to him as "The one you call Covenant", she ignores it.
There are also conveniences of a different sort. Things are brought up, often for little apparent reason, shortly before they become needed to accomplish something: the Seven Words, the Mahdoubt's name, the uses of orcrest.

This flaw--that so many things seemed obviously contrived in order to make the following events pass a certain way--affected my enjoyment of the book in its second half; it was still good, but those little things kept nagging at me.

The other thing that nagged me toward the end was the opposite of the contrivances: it was a perfect excuse for Linden to believe in what she was doing, that was completely ignored. It came from the Mahdoubt: after Melenkurion Skyweir she saw the darkness in Linden, saw that she might do great harm, but gave her the benefit of the doubt. Her exact words later, in their last meeting, were: "That good may be accomplished by evil means defies explication. Yet the Mahdoubt has assured herself that you are equal to such contradictions. Therefore she believes that you must not be turned aside."
Why, when the Mahdoubt had given her this--the assurance that what she was going to do would turn out alright, despite it being a path of "evil means"--did Linden forget those words, and instead repeat to herself the pathetic self-deception that "If Good cannot be accomplished by evil means, then she would have to believe that her means were not evil"?

Dwelling on these things almost makes me forget how much I enjoyed the book otherwise.

[Seareach]

Hey hey hey ...

Yes, Wayfriend???

[Zarathustra]

Dwelling on these things almost makes me forget how much I enjoyed the book otherwise.

You know, I've had the opposite feeling. I think that after I've got it off my chest, the things I don't like fade to the background, and I'm able to overlook them. I think, like Wayfriend, I'll enjoy it more on a second reading.

Anyway, it's good to know that I'm not alone in my gripes, and that my expectations aren't unreasonable.

How did you have the ending spoiled for you, Murrin? That really sucks.

[I'm Murrin]

Some little bits from people posting them in other forums. A couple of spoilers came when I was browsing the Watch, not thinking about what I was doing, and out of my habit of getting rid of every 'new post' marker would suddenly find myself browsing an FR topic. That happened more than once (found out that "half a dozen" Sandgorgons were going to appear at some point that way, and about Longwrath). My own fault, really.

I knew that Linden would fight Roger under Skyweir from one of the reviews I read. I found out "Covenant" was Roger from someone posting it in either Runes or 1st & 2nd Chrons forum. I can't remember where exactly I found out about Covenant's resurrection.

[ur-James]

Luckily I was able to stay away froms spoilers before reading the book. Overall I felt it was an amazing installment. I remember my heart breaking for Linden when she discovered that her son was the victim of a croyel and not the exuberant youth she was led to believe. I felt that scene truly helped to define Linden's change in character.

And while I agree with SRD that she had no choice but to resurrect Covenant (at least, no choice in her eyes) at the end, I felt it was a monumentally stupid mistake. Can't wait to see how this all turns out.

In short, I loved it.

[amanibhavam]

Re: The journey of part 1 depends entirely upon this contrived ignorance.

You can say the same about the entire Quest for the One Tree in the 2nd Chronicles. Or for that matter Elena's Quest for the Earthblood. If those involved had had been told what was really going on those journeys would have been unnecessary (and a good deal of pain and misery avoided as well). Caer Caveral, the Dead and the Wayhim could have spared Covenant the Quest for the One Tree, and Amok and the Bloodguard could have told the Lords what the Seventh Ward really was all about.

Agreed. We could similarly say that Hile Troy would've spared the Warward a whole lot of trouble if he spent his years as Warmark building a strong garrison (or two) somewhere closer to Landsdrop so that he do not have to relay on his scouts to reach him in time. Or that Gandalf could've saved Frodo a long journey if he would've feigned an attack on Barad-dúr and at the same time sending two swift eagles to drop the ring into Mount Doom.

The one point I sort of agreed with while I was reading the book was that there were way too many forces present at First Woodhelven and that made things chaotic (all the more aggravated by the fact that Linden spent her time during the battle chatting to Esmer). But we should remember that there is Lord Foul behind all these things somewhere. Maybe this piling up the forces is his doing, to provoke Linden to unleash forces way out of her control. Or just a way of SRD letting us know that things are escalating in the World, everything is approaching to an end and things just got on a bigger scale.

[Aleksandr]

Re: the Mahdoubt states that she feels Linden had to go on the journey she did in order to become the person she has become.

When Linden asks the Mahdout point blank why she kept quite abour Rioger the older woman starts to say "It is not permitted..." then corrects herself with "The Mahdout does not permit herself" But I wonder if there really is someone (the Theomach?) manipulating things behind the scenes-- the same someone who commanded the Dead not to speak in Andelain. Maybe the Mahdout knows the reasons here and agrees with them so she switches quickly to make it seem that it was her own judgment alone that kept her silent.

[Zarathustra]

Re: the Mahdoubt states that she feels Linden had to go on the journey she did in order to become the person she has become.

When Linden asks the Mahdout point blank why she kept quite abour Rioger the older woman starts to say "It is not permitted..." then corrects herself with "The Mahdout does not permit herself" But I wonder if there really is someone (the Theomach?) manipulating things behind the scenes-- the same someone who commanded the Dead not to speak in Andelain. Maybe the Mahdout knows the reasons here and agrees with them so she switches quickly to make it seem that it was her own judgment alone that kept her silent.

Whether Mahdoubt was permitted to speak or not isn't the point. Whoever kept her from speaking would have to make the same value judgment: Linden developing a little "grit" was worth risking the entire world--even though Linden could have had a similar experience in the present if someone had just told her the truth. Learning the truth is what made her into "the woman who doesn't forgive." What difference does it make if she learned this truth in the past or the present? She would have been pissed either way about Jeremiah and the croyel. And therefore she would have become the same woman either way. It was stupid to risk the earth and all it inhabitants for a little bit of character development that could just as easily happened in the present by revealing the very thing which she went into the past to learn.

[Aleksandr]

Re: It was stupid to risk the earth and all it inhabitants for a little bit of character development that could just as easily happened in the present by revealing the very thing which she went into the past to learn.

Just as Caer Caveral, the Dead, the Elohim and probably even Brinn (after defeating the Guardian) risked the Earth when no one bothered to tell Covenant about the danger at the One Tree. Of course the answer to that is that Vain had to go to the One Tree to get some of its essence when the stars struck him, letting the Forestal, the Dead and poossibly Brinn off the hook though Findail's reasons for keeping silent were never very convincing.
And here we have the same thing: people in the know failed to warn Linden and let her go back in time to... well, to encounter Caerroil Wildwood who was able to complete the Staff with runes. Could that have happened otherwise?
All in all, I actually think the world was in a lot more danger from Covenant at the One Tree than it ever was from Linden running around in Berek's time. She at least was aware of the risks she was taking and tried to minimize the chances of calamity, even choosing her Command wisely.

[Seppi2112]

All in all, I actually think the world was in a lot more danger from Covenant at the One Tree than it ever was from Linden running around in Berek's time.

Very well put Alek.