Serious discrepancy in Fatal Revenant (spoiler)

[lurch]

I am not sorry to say.. that what is being put forth as a " crucial Point" ,,isn't.. Matter of fact,, most of the questions being raised are Non Sequitor, and not crucial at all.

For me, Its beyond acceptability. The perspective being put forth in this thread,,that to be so able to get into minutia and make a point of it, without realizing the triviality and non sequitor of it all , seems contradictory.Its like seeing the Insequent ,so excellent in their specialty,,, and realizing that without connectivity to all the other elements of Life, they are sad characters indeed. How can one not be aware of the conflicted,, nit picking of supposed negligent and launching the discussion with.. being a big fan of SRD...??...Seems strange much is being made out of nothing. That SRD is a Human Being is no stretch for anybody to realize. To make a point of it borders on sophomoric.

.I am not making excuses for the author,, I am gettin at the paradox being put forth by this and other threads like it. There seems to be a " wrongness" spreading its pall around here.

[dlbpharmd]

While I certrainly enjoyed FR, and I agree 100% that SRD has his writing groove back, here's a rather major discrepancy about the past that really struck me:

In WGW ("Leper's Ground") TC asks Findail how Berek was able to get a limb off the One Tree without encountering the Worm of the World's End. Findail replies that in Berek's day there was no Guardian so the Worm was not alerted by combat, and that Berek himself set the Guardian (whom we have now met in FR). It's a fairly crucial point in fact, and TC is left wondering why Berek thought the Tree needed a Guardian or why another Staff would never be needed.

Now in FR we are told in Stave's tale of the Insequent that there in fact was a Guardian back then-- an Appointed Elohim, whom the Theomach defeated. And Infelice herself confirms this very near the end of the book.

So what's up here? Maybe this is deliberate, but why doesn't Linden recognize the discrepancy since she too heard Findail's explanation in WGW? Did SRD just goof with this, as he did in Runes with Hurtloam and the Ur-Viles on-going breeding? I'm planning to ask about this in the GI but I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

See below for SRD's answer:

OK, it's time to call a spade a *u**ing shovel. You've put your finger on a gen-you-wine, gosh-all-fishhooks Internal Inconsistency. A gold-plated Authorial Screwup. (I talk about it this way to deflect my chagrin.) But the facts are worse than you've made them out to be. This II (internal inconyougettheidea) is already firmly established in "The Second Chronicles". Findail makes the claims you quote, but the Haruchai state that there were a number of Guardians before Kenaustin Ardenol. Obviously they can't both be right. So I could argue that the Haruchai (being more human) are more likely to be wrong than the Elohim--which undercuts what I've written in "The Last Chronicles". Or I could argue that the Elohim (having a much older grudge against the Insequent) are more likely to lie than the Haruchai. But both arguments are just intellectual tap-dancing: an attempt to obfuscate the existence of a real II. The important facts, as I see them, are these:

1) I didn't do it on purpose. I simply screwed up. At the time, I was juggling so many balls that I dropped (at least) one. To pretend otherwise *now* is a self-serving rationalization.

2) This II exists entirely independent of "The Last Chronicles". It is firmly embedded in "The Second Chronicles," and it will still be there no matter what I do now.

3) I can't fix it. No one is going to let me go back and revise "The Second Chronicles". And I can't think of a way to resolve the contradiction retroactively that a) preserves the integrity of both the Elohim and the Haruchai in TSCOTC, and b) fits my current intentions.

At this point, all I can really do is throw up my hands. So-o-o--

I've decided to do what I believe is right for TLCOTC--and what I now believe I *would* have done in TSCOTC, if I had been smart enough 25 years ago. Admittedly, this exacerbates a prior II. But I choose not to dwell on that nagging detail. Instead I choose to revel in the freedom that comes from ACKNOWLEDGING MY MISTAKES and then leaving them behind. <rueful smile> The future sure looks brighter when it isn't chained to past errors.

...

[Fist and Faith]

OK, it's time to call a spade a *u**ing shovel. You've put your finger on a gen-you-wine, gosh-all-fishhooks Internal Inconsistency. A gold-plated Authorial Screwup. (I talk about it this way to deflect my chagrin.) But the facts are worse than you've made them out to be. This II (internal inconyougettheidea) is already firmly established in "The Second Chronicles". Findail makes the claims you quote, but the Haruchai state that there were a number of Guardians before Kenaustin Ardenol. Obviously they can't both be right. So I could argue that the Haruchai (being more human) are more likely to be wrong than the Elohim--which undercuts what I've written in "The Last Chronicles". Or I could argue that the Elohim (having a much older grudge against the Insequent) are more likely to lie than the Haruchai. But both arguments are just intellectual tap-dancing: an attempt to obfuscate the existence of a real II. The important facts, as I see them, are these:

1) I didn't do it on purpose. I simply screwed up. At the time, I was juggling so many balls that I dropped (at least) one. To pretend otherwise *now* is a self-serving rationalization.

2) This II exists entirely independent of "The Last Chronicles". It is firmly embedded in "The Second Chronicles," and it will still be there no matter what I do now.

3) I can't fix it. No one is going to let me go back and revise "The Second Chronicles". And I can't think of a way to resolve the contradiction retroactively that a) preserves the integrity of both the Elohim and the Haruchai in TSCOTC, and b) fits my current intentions.

At this point, all I can really do is throw up my hands. So-o-o--

I've decided to do what I believe is right for TLCOTC--and what I now believe I *would* have done in TSCOTC, if I had been smart enough 25 years ago. Admittedly, this exacerbates a prior II. But I choose not to dwell on that nagging detail. Instead I choose to revel in the freedom that comes from ACKNOWLEDGING MY MISTAKES and then leaving them behind. <rueful smile> The future sure looks brighter when it isn't chained to past errors.

...

I'll let him!! I just pmed Romeo to tell him I would be thrilled to accept an alternate answer by Findail!! How often do we get chances like this? A work of this magnitude is likely impossible to do without any II's at all. I see no need to hold SRD's human limitations against him. Let him have a do-over!! I'm freakin' serious!!

[dlbpharmd]

There's no WAY that I'd want him to revise Second Chronicles - but I'd let him revise FR!

[Fist and Faith]

ROFL!!! Yeah, but the revisions I'd ask for in FR are endless. I don't think he can make it to my liking. But he can change that one paragraph of Findail's, and at least he won't have that II.

[IrrationalSanity]

There may be some internal inconsistency, but I don't believe it is irreparable - the key here is that Findail says the guardian was not replaced THROUGH COMBAT. It could have been a test of wills, or Theo could have just constructed an Elohim Trap of some kind.

As for what the renewed guardian says, the Elohim that Theo replaced could have been a successor to some other guardian. (Not to mention that an Elohim and an Insequent could each have multiple names to consider.) He only says such is his renewal "from age to age". And even if there was combat on other occasions, the only renewal we care about is the one from Berek's approach.

[Fist and Faith]

No, Findail said there was no Guardian:

"The Worm was not made restive by [Berek's] approach, for he did not win his way with combat. In that age, the One Tree had no Guardian. It was he himself who gave the Tree its ward, setting the Guardian in place so that the vital wood of the world's life would not again be touched or broken."

Of course, Findail may have been lying, not wanting anyone to know an Elohim was beaten. But SRD says it was not that; it was an II.

[amanibhavam]

Well SRD may be grateful now he is no Tolkien; if he were he would feel compelled to go back and revise the whole story, write seven different drafts all approaching the problem slightly differently, then abandon the whole thing in the middle of the eighth draft mid-sentence, just to pick up 2 years later and come up with a - ingenuous but totally different from the previous eight - ninth, final version. Which would never be published, but the issue date of the 3rd volume of TLCOTC would now be postponed into the dim future.

[wayfriend]

It's really great to have that question settled! Donaldson's stories call on you to put things together and make sense of things yourself, and that's pretty hard to do when they are internally inconsistent to begin with. I'm very happy when the flaws are owned up to, as they otherwise throw a monkeywrench in ones ability to work things all out. That there are mistakes ... not a big deal at all.

Thanks, Aleksandr!

[wayfriend]

HEY!

Wait a cottin' pickin' minute... Back the plot truck up ... when I say whoa, I mean whoa ...

IF we retract the proposition that the Tree had no Guardian in Berek's day, THEN Covenant's original question remains unanswered.

"We couldn't get a branch of the One Tree. There was no way. But it's been done before. How did Berek do it?"

How did Berek do it???

Dare we to hope that Donaldson answers this question? I feel confident that he will.

Dare I think it ... At the end of FR, Linden has to deal with the roused Worm. If the Worm can be quelled, then it may be relevant that the Worm was roused, and quelled, back in Berek's day.

[Relayer]

Whoa is right! It appears that the presence of the Guardian is essentially irrelevant to rousing the Worm. In TOT, there is a Guardian, yet they still can approach the Tree...

Perhaps the Theomach had some lore to quell the Worm, or keep it from being roused in the first place. But he doesn't appear to be around. Of course that could change... is the merged Brinn/Theo/AHKA ready for an imminent appearance?

Or maybe that's the point... it's already too late. The entire thrust of AATE may be in the vain attempt to stop the Worm.

[wayfriend]

Relayer, I believe ak-Haru in TOT *was* the Theomach. Brinn said, "I am who I am. Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol." If Kenaustin Ardenol is the Theomach's real name, then he is part of the being that now include's Brinn.

So if the Theomach could keep the Worm calm, then we have to wonder, why for Berek but not for Covenant? We're no closer to the answer there.

[Relayer]

Yep, WF, I agree with you. Forgot about him not quieting the Worm in TOT though

Guess we could say he was "about to" intervene but didn't have to because Linden stopped Covenant. And actually, that sounds similar to the Elohim position regarding Roger and Linden at Earthroot...

In addition, maybe Theo's own purposes included Berek forming the first Staff, but required the new Staff to be formed from Vain and Findail. And considering how much he loves the Elohim, I'm sure he didn't mind having to sacrifice one of them

Or I'm totally off base with this theory and there's some other reason the Worm wasn't awakened by Berek. Maybe it's one of those one-time things... they didn't quite bother the Worm enough to cause a problem but when Covenant arrived it was already "on alert."

[wayfriend]

I think there is a connection between this issue and "The Linden Phenomenon", where the Elohim refuse to act in any way to save the world if Linden is around, because they'd rather let Linden do it.

The Elohim can quell the Worm, even if it means jumping into it's mouth and giving it something to munch on.

And the Guardian before the Theomach was an Elohim.

[dlbpharmd]

Relayer, I believe ak-Haru in TOT *was* the Theomach. Brinn said, "I am who I am. Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol." If Kenaustin Ardenol is the Theomach's real name, then he is part of the being that now include's Brinn.

So if the Theomach could keep the Worm calm, then we have to wonder, why for Berek but not for Covenant? We're no closer to the answer there.

How did Berek separate his branch from the One Tree? Could it be the fact that Covenant tried to use wild magic to take the branch?

[Fist and Faith]

I was about to say the same thing, dlb. But as I started writing, I remembered, iirc, that the problem started when Seadreamer tried to yank a branch off. Wild magic wasn't an issue yet. But I'm not home with my books at the moment...

[Beyondthebreach]

The Elohim set an Appointed to guard The One Tree so that no one disturbed the Worm by taking a branch, hurting the tree or whatever else.

Kenaustin Ardenol then defeats the Elohim and Berek (or the Theomach) is able take a branch. Perhaps, at this point, the Worm was quelled by the Theomach. That is, he wasn't forced to be a Guardian because he defeated the Elohim, rather he sacrificed himself to calm the Worm and allow Berek to remove the branch. He is, after all, not *really* an Insequent anymore - his name no longer has the power to summon/command him and the Vizard was not obligated to follow the Insequent "laws" in revealing his name.

The Theomach had gained the knowledge of what needed to be done.

There is also the question of the Elohim . . . what happened to the Elohim he defeated? In what matter was it defeated? Combat doesn't have to be the answer - the Theomach could have somehow used the power of the Elohim or the Elohim itself to Calm the Worm . . . maybe destroying the Elohim in the process.

Or, maybe the defeated Elohim was used much as Findail was to form the original Staff of Law. The ingredients seem to be Structure and Power.

For Berek: A One Tree branch and a defeated Elohim.
For Linden: An ur-Vile created Vain and an Appointed Elohim.

Fuse together, mix well, let cool and voila! - one Staff of Law is served.

[dlbpharmd]

I was about to say the same thing, dlb. But as I started writing, I remembered, iirc, that the problem started when Seadreamer tried to yank a branch off. Wild magic wasn't an issue yet. But I'm not home with my books at the moment...

That's correct, Seadreamer touched a branch prior to Covenant raising the wild magic.

[Ur Dead]

Berek was full of Earthpower. Maybe he was radiating it so much that the worm wasn't arouse. Like having a itch or twich instead of a bite.


edit for typo.. l next to k.

[dlbpharmd]

Berel was full of Earthpower. Maybe he was radiating it so much that the worm wasn't arouse. Like having a itch or twich instead of a bite.

Valid point.