Wordy words from FR

[burgs]

Or, more specifically, to make something damned. As in, the croyel make a hell of the dark places of the Earth.

That makes sense...thanks.

[lfex]

Donaldson continues use obscure words which are his trademark, and I rather enjoy them, even if I have to wonder if it hasn't become somewhat self-conscious by now. I didn't notice use of "formication" which was common favorite in RotE, though.

[burgs]

I could have sworn that I saw him use the "word" forfid.

It's not in any dictionary (not even a full text search of the online OED), and doesn't come up on Google.

Does that "word" ring any bells for anyone?

I, too, enjoy what he does with language. More fun, though, is to watch those of us who are fans (myself included more than once, I admit) try to use our favorite words of his in our own writing (posting, reviews on Amazon, etc.).

That said, I still think that he overuses his extended vocabulary. I believe he would find his works more widely accepted - both by readers and academia.

[Ur Dead]

Frankly, I think we should rise up to SRD's vocabulary and not SRD fall to the readers and academia level.
It might help retard academia's slide into the incoherent abyss .

[burgs]

I know that I'm in the minority with my view amongst SRDs "extremely loyal" fan base (I include myself in that group).

Here's the thing, though. Every writer has to ask themselves this question: "What do I *need* to tell my story?"

He needed TC to rape Linden (lost hundreds of thousands of potential readers there), he needed Linden to murder her father, but he doesn't *need* to use highbrow language as much as he does.

I'm not saying that he should write like Dr. Seuss, but if he wants to attract and keep readers (and he says that he does - as any writer) then that's something he should look at. Outside of people hating TC, their biggest problem with Donaldson (well - one of their biggest...another might be that rape is central to so many of his stories) is his use of language. I believe that he could tell the story the way the story *needs* to be told with more accessible language.

[Seppi2112]

Remember that for SRD writing is orchestral. Maybe Wagner doesn't need a nearly-impossible-to-play trombone piece in Fafner's Leifmotif, but it fits the mood of what Fafner represents to the overall operatic movement.

SRD is the same way.

[emotional leper]

[burgs]

That is a good post, and I'd agree if, when reading the text aloud, it sounded as good as Wagner. But the "big words" often come off sounding clunky. "Succor" looks fine in print, but sounds like a lollipop when spoken. But again, I know I'm in the minority. I do like his use, just not what I consider his abuse.

He may think that anything less affects his integrity as an artist, but if he was more judicious with his use of language, we would never have noticed, and we'd still be fans. (So I assume.) Surely somebody agrees? Other than reviewers on Amazon who rate his books poorly?

*Sigh*

[emotional leper]

It sets a tone for the work that makes it, to me, seem slightly more 'epic.' The vocabulary is one you don't see every day, and the Land is a place you don't see every day.

[Stutty]

He may think that anything less affects his integrity as an artist, but if he was more judicious with his use of language, we would never have noticed, and we'd still be fans. (So I assume.) Surely somebody agrees? Other than reviewers on Amazon who rate his books poorly?

*Sigh*

Sorry burgs, while I agree that toning down the language would make his works more accessible, it would take away too much. It may be a stretch, but I do believe it's the difference between crap fiction and SRD artful goodyness.

Taking away the $10 words would be like a sober Keith Richards. Neither TC nor the Rolling Stones would be the same.

stutt

[burgs]

What's a little funny about my comments in this thread - to me at least - is that I have argued the other side many times to people who didn't much care for SRDs works. Of course, I always acknowledged that he could be more judicious...but I defended his use of $10 words.

To what EL said: to me, the Land is such a strikingly original landscape that his vocabulary doesn't affect it one way or the other. If the biggest word he had used was "butter", I think I still would have been blown away. And while I think I understand what you're saying about it seeming more "epic", I'm not sure that I agree. Martin is certainly "epic", and doesn't do the same thing. Of course Martin and Donaldson are like apples and bacon, so they don't really compare well. Still, successful epics have been written without $10 words.

Anyway, I've said more on this than I should. Talk about having the wrong conversation with the wrong group of people! It's like going to a Tolkien board and insisting that Tolkien's gorgeous, slightly archaic prose, is boring. Or a Jordan board and complaining about the 500 pages of overly detailed descriptions, leaving only 100 pages for action.

I'll bet I could get some takers for those positions on this board. (I'd take the position on Jordan myself, actually, no disrespect intended to the man.)

[Seareach]

Anyway, I've said more on this than I should. Talk about having the wrong conversation with the wrong group of people! It's like going to a Tolkien board and insisting that Tolkien's gorgeous, slightly archaic prose, is boring. Or a Jordan board and complaining about the 500 pages of overly detailed descriptions, leaving only 100 pages for action.

Well, I kinda think that's not exactly true. Given how many comments there are about what people *didn't* like about Fatal Revenant. ...

[lurch]

sorry about that , double post on my part,, hit the wrong button some where along the process,, any way,, the one below is it

[lurch]

I think I understand your point Burgs, but,, i can't agree. From LFB to FR , arcane, olde etc english words have been SRD's trade mark , at least in the TC books. So, they have always been there, and I would be greatly puzzled if they were not there. They add a dimension to the story telling. As one has already posted, their presence seems to be connected to the Land. The antique and arcane words don't show up in force until the Land is entered. They go together like hand and glove....or like the hand fills out a glove. There is the dimension i refer to.

So, i'm talking about a bit more than the plot. The ambiance, closer to theme, or theme support is what I am getting at. Sure, the story could be told without the RoadShow words but it wouldn't feel the same, delight the same, entertain the same. The world is full of Jugglers. But the one who juggles roaring chainsaws,,ahh! he gets the bookings. I hope that analogy is closer than apples and bacon,,and I hope you see my point. Those words make the reader slow down, spend time in the dictionary,,and maybe even as I did with that red thumb word in the opening line, " coign" research a bit farther to perceive wit and humor by the author.

You may say I am taking it too far. Well,,in Runes, the author pulled a similar little humorous " play" of words. I have forgotten all the details, but basically the name of the guys son, the son who Linden apparently may have dated once or twice,,well his name in olde english meant ,,2nd rate,,which was a hint at why possibly nothing ever became of his and Lindens relationship.

When Runes came out I posted about that little word play. I don't recall any response... So I was once again smirking when I saw " coign" in the opening line,,It struck me like a red flag. I looked it up ..after I finished the book..and behold got the joke. There is the added dimension. No not every antiquer is a joke , but I can not help but sense the ambiance through his choice of words.

Seems to me, SRD wants to keep the fans and general audience,, and he does that by the tone and hue of his story telling, which he creates with the words he uses. If it wasn't for the words he chooses, it all mite be,, " It was a dark and stormy night.." Stephen King is predictable and somewhat cliche'. SRD is neither.

[amanibhavam]

The Land is a different place, different from our world, we know that, health, illness, emotion have texture, colour, dimension. I strongly that SRD's way of writing is a vehicle to make this difference palpable to us - the only way to describe something for which we do not really have words or mental images, it's like when Hile Troy learned how to see despite having no eyes and no raw material in his mind to create images.
Just look at the balnd, blunt, colourless way the real-world protagonists speak in the books, both TC and Linden (although TC had reached some sort of a dignity by the end of T2CTC). I always cringe when I read Linden's utterances in contrast with those of all the others.

[Auleliel]

]He may think that anything less affects his integrity as an artist, but if he was more judicious with his use of language, we would never have noticed, and we'd still be fans. (So I assume.) Surely somebody agrees? Other than reviewers on Amazon who rate his books poorly?

I enjoy the vocabulary lesson I get each time I read any of SRD's works. However, it would be nice to have some of the over-used $10 words used less frequently, and replaced with synonyms--even if they are equally obscure.

[burgs]

He may think that anything less affects his integrity as an artist, but if he was more judicious with his use of language, we would never have noticed, and we'd still be fans. (So I assume.) Surely somebody agrees? Other than reviewers on Amazon who rate his books poorly?

I enjoy the vocabulary lesson I get each time I read any of SRD's works. However, it would be nice to have some of the over-used $10 words used less frequently, and replaced with synonyms--even if they are equally obscure.

That's really all that I want. I enjoy the vocabulary lessons as well - to an extent. I don't want him to write like Hemingway, whose works (brilliant) don't require a dictionary. I just wish he was more judicious with his use.

He seemed to have laid off the ten dollar words more than usual in ROTE, found some new ones to introduce here, and I found myself scrambling for a dictionary more than I cared to. There was one sentence in particular that made me scream, because I had to use *two* dictionaries to get through it. I didn't mark the sentence, and can't find it now, but I remember one of the words: chrysoprase. That was one of four similarly "difficult" words in that sentence. A sentence that I did make note of is this: "Its {...} had become a blackness as deep as ebony or fuligin." Fuligin wasn't in an Oxford dictionary I consulted, but I found it in Encarta's dictionary, and it's defined thus: 1. sooty: having the color or consistency of soot or smoke, 2. obscure: like soot in cloudiness or obscurity.

I suppose that an argument could be made that #2 adds some dimension to the definition, but I'm not sure - especially as fuligin isn't a common ten dollar word.

I first read FR as an ARC. The second time I read it was when I received my copy from Amazon. I couldn't find the sentence I note above with the word chrysoprase, and thought I was reading carefully enough not to miss that sentence, as I was specifically looking for it. If anyone knows of it, or can find it, post it here. You'll see what I mean. It may be a gorgeous sentence, but I'm not sure that it made sense. Even armed with definitions.

After a while, I just went to the OED online if the Oxford American Dictionary that I had on my nightstand didn't contain the word. The OED always had the word - unless it was a Donaldson word, like demnify.

As a writer, I try to be a wordsmith in my fiction as well. In writing groups, I've often had my work returned to me with question marks next to words, or notes that it was misspelled. I used "discomfit" once, and twice had it handed back to me by the same reader that it was misspelled - and should be discomfort. That shows me that even writers aren't always going to take the time to consult dictionaries - especially if you need to consult multiple dictionaries.

[Seareach]

I first read FR as an ARC. The second time I read it was when I received my copy from Amazon. I couldn't find the sentence I note above with the word chrysoprase, and thought I was reading carefully enough not to miss that sentence, as I was specifically looking for it. If anyone knows of it, or can find it, post it here. You'll see what I mean. It may be a gorgeous sentence, but I'm not sure that it made sense. Even armed with definitions.

It's there still. Pg 229 US edition:

"You can hear me," she pronounced, speaking now in lambent chrysoprase and jacinth rather than saffron blots.

Her interaction with the Viles is quite abstract.

In this passage I take lambent to be "softly bright"
chrysoprase: a green variety of chalcedony, sometimes used as a gem
jacinth: red or blue stones

...so she speaks in soft glowing green, red and/or blue... makes sense to me... given the abstract nature of the passage


But it's not a "new" word for him...

The Wounded Land

When the sun broke the horizon, Sunder let out a cry of exultation. The brown was gone. In its place, the sun wore a coronal of chrysoprase. The light green touch on Covenant's face was balmy and pleasant, like a caress after the cruel pressure of the desert sun

The One Tree

Features emerged as the figure shaped itself: eyes like chrysoprase, delicate brows, a fine nose and soft mouth. Wattle-slim and straight, deft and proud, with a grave smile on her lips and a luminous welcome in her gaze, the woman came forward like an incarnation of the soul of the ash in which she had been contained; and her departure left no mark of presence or absence in the wood.

White Gold Wielder

Before noon, a band of green—the color of chrysoprase and Daphin's eyes—closed around the sun like a garrote

...sorry...I'm bored so I got a bit obsessed!

[burgs]

"You can hear me," she pronounced, speaking now in lambent chrysoprase and jacinth rather than saffron blots.

Thanks for the reference! I'm glad you were bored. I'll have to update my review. And I'll have to reread that whole section. But I like your explanation, and it makes sense. I guess he specified the apple-green variety of chalcedony so as to ensure that it wasn't the same "sick" green of the Illearth Stone. Still, the average reader (and most of us aren't average readers, not after eight Covenant books) is going to struggle with that sentence.

What's interesting is that my online dictionary underlined chrysoprase and jacinth. The dictionary doesn't recognize the words!

You know, I have to confess. It occurred to me earlier that the title I'm proposing for a book contains a $10 word: "parlous". Some have said they liked it, others that it was too obscure, but it's the *perfect* word for what I'm doing, and other synonyms for the word that are more recognizable don't fit quite as well.

So I do get it.

[lurch]

[



...so she speaks in soft glowing green, red and/or blue... makes sense to me... given the abstract nature of the passage


Yes , that is exactly it..words as colors...she is talking to Viles,,words as colors,,Its like saying,,,seeing music, or seeing a note blasted from a trumpet,,etc.He is suggesting a whole different perception, reality, here and what better way to bring us into it, than with words almost as foreign and different as they can be from the norm. The words are at the edge of our imaginations , pulling the reader into the unknown of its unexplored imagination,,a whole different reality.

Linden, in that passage, experiences quite the surreal. That passage with the Viles,,is like ,,defining the surreal.,, as in knowing truth from lies, self defeatism,,Why do you permit the purposes of the others, when you have no need of it..These are some of the very questions and issues Andre Breton was discussing back in the 1920's as he sought to define and introduce the " Surreal" . Like Breton, the Viles point out,,You have the Power, have the lore, but it surpasses you..

Also consider, these olde words, obscure and antique , are part and parcel of the whole Time traveling motif. I mean using archaic and middle English words forces the reader to do a bit of Time traveling ,,,no? The TCofTC has always dealt with differences in Time Experience. Any LOST fans reading this post? How about the Great Easter Egg,,"Only fools are enslaved by time and space"..?

Now, a question raises itself..what " 10 dollar" words will the author come up with if and when the " future" is dealt with rather than the past?