Kevin's Watch

yes but this profanity seems to be completely out of place. IMHO yet more evidence that SRD has somewhat lost the plot in these last books. I may yet be surprised, will wait and see...

Alan

Patience, my friend - patience.

that's stupid, man. Saying bad words doesn't lessen or cheapen anything. Only if you have some kind of stupid morals about bad words, does it effect your perception of it. I see no problem at all with roger saying fuck. Don't forget that donaldson has always been an edgy writer.

Jeroth wrote: Saying bad words doesn't lessen or cheapen anything. Only if you have some kind of stupid morals about bad words, does it effect your perception of it. I see no problem at all with roger saying fuck. Don't forget that donaldson has always been an edgy writer.

Yeah. To me, "fuck" is just a word. It's a well known "bad word" nowadays, and very effective as an expletive, but a hundred or a thousand years from now another word will be considered bad; "fuck" won't even be around I bet. It wasn't a thousand years ago; it showed up around the 1500's.

In the Dictionary of Slang and Euphemism the word is described as "a contrived acronym for an imaginary etymology of F.U.C.K. 'for unlawful carnal knowledge' or 'fornication under the consent of the king'".

In other words: it really doesn't mean anything!

It is a tad strange to be complaining about "bad words" from an author who's shown us every form of rape imaginable.

burgs wrote:It is a tad strange to be complaining about "bad words" from an author who's shown us every form of rape imaginable.

Exactly, burgs. Actions are always a lot worse than so-called "bad words." But a lot people don't seem to have a problem with actions, no matter how horrific.

Jeroth wrote:that's stupid, man. Saying bad words doesn't lessen or cheapen anything. Only if you have some kind of stupid morals about bad words, does it effect your perception of it. I see no problem at all with roger saying fuck. Don't forget that donaldson has always been an edgy writer.

Spoiler

It seems totally in character for Roger to be profane.

[mod edit - only because the Watch member who originally started this line of discussion obviously hasn't read far enough into the book and would be spoiled by that statement. Otherwise, carry on. dlbpharmd]

time for the next instalement of FR. I will struggle on and hope that SRD doesn't dissappoint too much.

Alan

alanm wrote:it still doesn't explain why SRD no see fit to start swearing in his books. I have always thoguth that it is the lowest form of trying to achieve something that is better left unspoken

If you want to know why the foul language was so limited in the first two Chronicles, look no further than Lester del Rey. He was an extremely puritanical editor, trained in the pulp magazines of the 1930s and 40s, and firmly schooled in the belief that all this SF & F stuff was to be firmly aimed at kiddies. His wife Judy-Lynn, who was the other del Rey of Del Rey Books, shared these opinions.

Jack Chalker once told me how the del Reys flat-out forbade him to mention in the text that his character Nathan Brazil had an erection. He was trapped in an endlessly renewing option clause at the time: his book contracts included a clause that allowed Del Rey to buy his next book on exactly the same terms, including the option clause, so he could never get out or even ask for better pay. In the end he wrote a deliberately pornographic novel which could not be made PG-rated without completely destroying the story. They rejected it, and he sold his next book to another publisher for something like three times the advance the del Reys would have given him.

Any editor nowadays would simply buy the porn and release it under circumstances that guaranteed failure at the cheapest possible price — small print run, no promotion, poor distribution, etc. But the del Reys were not about to let anything go out that contained 'adult subject matter' or language worse than the 'two hells and a damn' then allowed on television.

I suspect there would have been profanity aplenty in the first six books if Del Rey had not been the publisher.

Great to hear from my navigator in the Lordsmobile!

How are you, VF?

Damelon wrote:Great to hear from my navigator in the Lordsmobile!

How are you, VF?

Yeah, where have you been?
I miss your posts!

Well this " profanity" issue has now fell into the delicious. Variol has added the bon mot of the Del Reys. Excellent!!,,Consider then,,,if Lester had not been so adamant on non use of the rough colloquial or Donaldson had been picked by another publisher, then the suggestion is rough language would possibly have been seen earlier in TCoTC. Think of that for second and you may see the consequences as in: The use of the rough colloquial in FR would not have been an indicator that the TC who uttered the grateing was not TC,,( seemed to me to be a red thumb clue that this was not the Real TC)..also a subtler point, the " innocence" of TC's rapeing,, that is,,he believed it all to be a dream,,That mite of been a bit more difficult to digest if he was slinging the f word all about...As far as a read for children..perhaps way back in the day..but a hard bound book at 15 and up dollars ( the 70's ya kno)..not quite children's market there...So, to me.. the current appearence of the swear words works just fine. They Contrast , for purpose ,with the past and at the same time.. reinforce that past as well.

Damelon wrote:Great to hear from my navigator in the Lordsmobile!

How are you, VF?

Ah, there you two are!! How the hell am I supposed to guard you if you keep ditching me like this!!!

VS Wrote

Jack Chalker once told me how the del Reys flat-out forbade him to mention in the text that his character Nathan Brazil had an erection. He was trapped in an endlessly renewing option clause at the time: his book contracts included a clause that allowed Del Rey to buy his next book on exactly the same terms, including the option clause, so he could never get out or even ask for better pay. In the end he wrote a deliberately pornographic novel which could not be made PG-rated without completely destroying the story. They rejected it, and he sold his next book to another publisher for something like three times the advance the del Reys would have given him.

you met Jack Chalker???? I Love NATHAN BRAZIL -- And Mavra Chang!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Damelon wrote:Great to hear from my navigator in the Lordsmobile!

How are you, VF?

Yeah, where have you been?
I miss your posts!

I second this - been waiting for your opinion on FR!

Re: It wasn't a thousand years ago; it showed up around the 1500's.

Since the word has cognates in German and Dutch, and possibly even in Greek and Latin, it's certainly been a round a lot longer than that. 1500 is the date of the earliest text it appears in. Presumably it was used in the spoken language long before.

Wasn't the First Chronicles originally published in hardcover by a publisher like Knopf? I had thought that Del Rey had only picked up the paperback rights, though of course they could have been in on it from the beginning.

Aleksandr wrote:Re: It wasn't a thousand years ago; it showed up around the 1500's.

Since the word has cognates in German and Dutch, and possibly even in Greek and Latin, it's certainly been a round a lot longer than that. 1500 is the date of the earliest text it appears in. Presumably it was used in the spoken language long before.

You're probably right; I'm just going by what my book said. Wikipedia has more to say about it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck

arenn wrote:Wasn't the First Chronicles originally published in hardcover by a publisher like Knopf? I had thought that Del Rey had only picked up the paperback rights, though of course they could have been in on it from the beginning.

Holt published the hardcovers, but I believe that Judy DelRey had a hand in that happening. Donaldson recently addressed this in the GI.

alanm wrote:yes but this profanity seems to be completely out of place. IMHO yet more evidence that SRD has somewhat lost the plot in these last books. I may yet be surprised, will wait and see...

Alan

Anonymous: Steve,
I have more of a comment rather than a question. I have been reading Fatal Revenant this week and something occured to me. Your introducing of profanity into Covenant is similar to Foul introducing the Sunbane in the second series. You have utterly corrupted what was quite a legendary place. (The Land DOES exist in our minds). So, you have actually BECOME a living embodiment of Lord Foul. Ironic, isn't it? Becoming the very thing you loathe. I want you to know that I have been hard at work with a white-out pen making Fatal Revenant a "proper" Covenant novel. Don't bother responding to my submission either. I am not interested in your fancy explanations. It just is what it is. Base disappointment after 20 years of waiting.

WE FOUND OUT WHO IT WAS!!! WE FOUND HIM!!!

Jack Chalker once told me how the del Reys flat-out forbade him to mention in the text that his character Nathan Brazil had an erection. He was trapped in an endlessly renewing option clause at the time: his book contracts included a clause that allowed Del Rey to buy his next book on exactly the same terms, including the option clause, so he could never get out or even ask for better pay. In the end he wrote a deliberately pornographic novel which could not be made PG-rated without completely destroying the story. They rejected it, and he sold his next book to another publisher for something like three times the advance the del Reys would have given him.

LOL!!