The Theomach & time travel

[earthbrah]

But how would Linden have recognized him? My recollection of that battle between Kenaustin Ardenol and Brinn is that the Search with Linden watched the battle from afar in the boat. They couldn't see the face of either combatants, just two figures going at it.

Or am I totally wrong about this?

[iQuestor]

there was a description of the Guardian, but they were in a boat well off shore asnd unable to move in. There was a thick fog as well. I doubt Linden would have recognized The Theomach as the Guardian, but Brinn she would have.

Now, I dont think its Brinn, because he supposedly merged with the Theomach after he bested him.

I think it is telling though that Roger knew him so well. We have to ask, is it someone that Linden also knows? It could go either way. Apparently Roger has spent some time in the Land so its plausible he could have met someone Linden hadnt met before.

I don't think its Jeremiah, TC, or anyone else we've met yet...

[earthbrah]

I know, IT'S LYTTON! ('scuse me while I shoot this guy.)

[wayfriend]

I think the Theomach is exactly who he appears to be: Kenausten Ardenol (sp?). Linden would have already known his name. And his face would have to be hidden so she wouldn't recognise him as the Guardian of the One Tree and accidently (unknowingly) blurt out his name and then he would have to answer questions which he (and Jerimiah and Roger) wouldn't want answered.

Ah, I think you've got it. His name, even before he became the Guardian, was Kenaustin Ardenol. That's sufficient for his statement that Linden already knew his name to be correct.

The obvious thing to conclude, then, is that the face mask was to prevent Linden recognizing him. He knows of the future - either he was from there, or he went there, or he has the power to see there. And he could not take a chance and hope that Linden would not recognize him.

But he was not just avoiding questions. If Linden were to know his name, this would give her some hold over him. The Mahdoubt and the Harrow have all stated this. (Although at the time Linden had know way to know that.) It's entirely plausible that he did not want Linden to be able to stop his plan to get to the One Tree, or bother him with demanding more help than he was willing to give.

Which leads me to one other conclusion. The Mahdoubt and the Theomach had to have some sort of conversation at some point. The Theomach chose the time that Linden would be stranded in. It's too unlikely that the Mahdoubt would know of this on her own, especially since she has no power to "see her future" as the Theomach has. So I think that the Theomach included in his arrangements for Linden's rescue.

And the Insequent don't interfere with each other. However, I am sure that they can exchange favors that they both agree to.

So is it any wonder, then, that the Mahdoubt's literal "last request" is to let Linden know who the Theomach became?

[earthbrah]

Wayfriend wrote:

Ah, I think you've got it. His name, even before he became the Guardian, was Kenaustin Ardenol. That's sufficient for his statement that Linden already knew his name to be correct.

That's exactly how I've interpreted it since first reading FR. Ockham's razor and all...

But you broach some other good points, Wayfriend. My favorite is your idea that the Theomach and the Mahdoubt had a conversation at some point. The Theomach told the Mahdoubt when to find Linden so that she could bring her back to her proper time and keep her from doing something in her despair to shatter time. That would certainly be within the apparent purpose of the Theomach.

As for his timetraveling, I keep reminding myself of his description during "Interference". He was constantly perceived to be standing beside himself, as if in two places at once. Like he was doing with time exactly what Roger/TC was claiming to be doing--folding it.

But I still don't understand how Roger could have known him so well.

[wayfriend]

I had an idea, that occurred to me in another thread. It seems to fit in this topic best.

------

Have we ever answered the question of, why does the Theomach want so badly to get to the One Tree and become the new Guardian?

So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite.

If the Arch contains the seeds of it's own destruction, it may be this destructive force which is prodded by the Quest's actions: it may have been the Arch of Time itself which was resting below Bare Isle. Somehow, the Arch is “close” to the Earth at this point, “resting”, and feeling “like the end of the world”. It is not a coincidence that the One Tree is here. The One Tree was the Creator’s sole means of helping the people of the Land, via the first Staff of Law. Perhaps the “closeness” of the One Tree to the Arch made this possible.

I just had a two-and-two-makes-four kind of thought.

What if the Creator or the Arch IS "closer" (in some way) to the Earth at the One Tree? And what if it is the Guardian who is that manifestation of the Arch and/or Creator? Could the Guardian of the One Tree have some sort of channel to the outside, to the Creator?

This would explain the Theomach's interest in getting to Bare Isle and becoming the Guardian. Access to that kind of knowledge.

It would also explain how that quote from Lord Foul's Bane could be true. Once the Theomach became Ak-Haru, he might have had some sort of ability to guide Berek in the fashioning of the original Staff of Law, which could be said to have come from the Creator himself.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm very reluctant to so much as speculate about the Creator having guided Berek, and all that you say. Not that I'm saying you're wrong, mind you. I just don't like the contradictions that I do not believe can be avoided, so I choose to ignore the topic.

However:

Have we ever answered the question of, why does the Theomach want so badly to get to the One Tree and become the new Guardian?

I believe the Theomach did this because he could think of no better way to test himself than by battling an Elohim. Doubtless, none of the others would battle him. They probably just melted away instead, or found various ways to refuse to fight him. But the Guardian had no choice but to do everything s/he could to prevent the Theomach from getting to the One Tree, so Theo's desire to fight an Elohim could not be refused.

[ninjaboy]

What I am concerned in regerding the Theomach is the Sequencing...

He becomes the tutor of Berek and takes him to the One Tree where he (I assume) defeats the Elohim Guardian.. Thousands of years later Linden comes to the land (for the 1st time) and sees Brinn defeat him at the One Tree..

In Berek's time he Knew that he has already beaten the Elohim guardian and thus Linden would know him as Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol.

And he and Roger talk about his eventual victory over the Elohim (which I assume would be his victory over the original Guardian)..

But defeating one Elohim.. is that really such a victory? Also did he HAVE to defeat the Elohim so he could Allow Brinn to beat him so Covenant etc. could get to the island?

[Atrium]

I think the Theomach wanted to beat the elohim Guardian partly because of the rivalry between their peoples. But also because of merging with the elohim and becoming the Guardian, and later merging with Brinn, will enable him to perform some function that we yet have to see unravel. After Brinn beats the Guardian he states that "Though i may no longer sojourn in your service, i am not dead to life or use. Good will come of it, when there is need."

[dlbpharmd]

I'd forgotten that line. Good post, Atrium.

[ninjaboy]

That's very true.. Cannot wait to see more involvement from the ak-Haru

[wayfriend]

Yeah, I think that the merging of the three (so far) beings into one Guardian is going to be critical before the end. (And I also think that Esmer doesn't like Brinn's addition. "Because of the Haruchai, there will be endless havoc!")

But that's an interesting point about the Theomach's knowing he would succeed at becoming the Guardian.

Could it be that he was only planning on the possibility that he might succeed? I doubt it... if he knew specifically that Linden would one day be at Bare Isle, he would know everything else.

Given all that, I can't agree with MM's idea that the Guardian was merely a Elohim who could not run from the Theomach's chance to measure himself. He knew so much about the significance of those events, and doesn't strike me as being irresponsible enough to not care about them.

Besides, all he had to do was use his time travel to threaten the Arch and Elohim would have come running to him. He could probably have fought with Elohim any time he wanted to.

[ninjaboy]

But do you think the Theomach's victory against the Appointed Guardian was the huge victory that he will have against the Elohim, or is there more of his Ass-Kicking to come?

Or has there already been a bigger victory and we haven't heard about it yet?

Esmer's ability to time travel also provides a few questions.. If he can see further consequences of Brinn's victory at the One Tree, could that influence his service to either Kastenessen or Linden?

[Fist and Faith]

Besides, all he had to do was use his time travel to threaten the Arch and Elohim would have come running to him. He could probably have fought with Elohim any time he wanted to.

But he did not want to threaten the Arch. He always did what he could to preserve it. He wasn't likely to risk the Arch in order to achieve his ends. Not even the non-Arch-preserving ones.

[wayfriend]

Besides, all he had to do was use his time travel to threaten the Arch and Elohim would have come running to him. He could probably have fought with Elohim any time he wanted to.

But he did not want to threaten the Arch. He always did what he could to preserve it. He wasn't likely to risk the Arch in order to achieve his ends. Not even the non-Arch-preserving ones.

He would not have to damage the Arch. He would only have to seem as if he was about to. And then an Elohim would, supposedly, show up to blow a whistle and yell What's All This Then?

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, but the Elohim would know that he was just trying to make it look like he was going to damage it. Ya know? If he was not willing to actually break the Arch, they would know.

[ninjaboy]

it's an impossible question.. you know, sometimes I'm reading these discussions and I'm thinking that maybe these discussions are the ones Donaldson WANTs us to have...