Kevin's Watch

amanibhavam wrote:But his isn't a new series after all - it was conceived at the same time as the Second Chronicles and should be regarded as a coherent story, despite the long timespan between the writing of the two.
True, SRD's writing style has changed, is much more Gap-style, and that affects the story: we are mainly kept in the dark about the possible outcomes and intentions. All we can do is speculate, and wait.

I still have a very hard time believing that this last series was conceived at the same time as 2nd chrons. They are too different in style and I still believe that SRD has lost his way in this last series.

I think the biggest issue is that after re-reading TWl and TC discovers how LF did not die at the end of the first chrons was because the staff had been destroyed. LF was able to shelter at the only power able to preserve him, earthpower. TC pays for this knowledge with his own blood. At the end of WGW we have a new living staff of law (provided by the wisdom of the dead in andelain). TC even says to linden that she has to heal the land otherwise the sunbane will bring LF back. So we have a new living staff of law, remember what vain said (together we will redeem the earth) and no sunbane. To my mind the only 2 powers that LF could hope to save him are gone.

IMHO

Every time I see someone say "I can't believe that these were concieved at the same time" I just ask myself, "How long passed between the 2nd and 3rd chronicles?"

If you wrote a story and came back to it so many years later, of course it would be different. Your writing style would have changed, and your perspective on how to continue would change. People read the First and Second chronicles and get used to a certain style, and then read the Last and hate it because it's like it's being written by a different person.

Which it is.

The first and second chronicles were published about 6 years apart. The Second and Last were published about 20 years apart. Of course it's different!

Emotional Leper wrote:If you wrote a story and came back to it so many years later, of course it would be different.

Well said.

Emotional Leper wrote:Every time I see someone say "I can't believe that these were concieved at the same time" I just ask myself, "How long passed between the 2nd and 3rd chronicles?"

If you wrote a story and came back to it so many years later, of course it would be different. Your writing style would have changed, and your perspective on how to continue would change. People read the First and Second chronicles and get used to a certain style, and then read the Last and hate it because it's like it's being written by a different person.

Which it is.

The first and second chronicles were published about 6 years apart. The Second and Last were published about 20 years apart. Of course it's different!

I think people read the last chrons and don't like it because it has no justification to be written because the series ended at the end of WGW. There seems to be no cohesive thread between the 1st and 2nd chrons and the last series. Nothing that has been written in runes and FR has any link to the 1st and 2nd series.

imho SRD knows this and no matter what he says about having the idea at the time, how are we to know this, after all it was over 20 years ago.

How are we to know he didn't? Any claim that he didn't is based on our own reading - our own interpretation and enjoyment (or lack thereof) of both Runes of the Earth and Fatal Revenant.

I've said before and I will say again that in my opinion the way these two books have been written, and the way in which they differ from the previous six volumes, makes sense having read The Gap. Just my opinion, such as it is.

There weren't that many links between the first and second chronicles if I remember right.

The final chronicles seem to fit into the overall story of the Land in the same way the 2nd chronicles did, at least to me. It's a continuation of the story. Infelice even says that Lord Foul wasn't finally defeated because Linden wasn't the WildWielder in the final battle, so TC's inadequacies led to a less-than-final ending.

Granted, the books in the final chronicles do differ, but look how much time passed between the writing of the 2nd and final chronicles. Writing styles change over time. I still think that all 3 chronicles tie together well enough.

alanm wrote:imho SRD knows this and no matter what he says about having the idea at the time, how are we to know this, after all it was over 20 years ago.

I think you're missing something here... SRD himself talked about the 3rd Chronicles 20+ years ago, there were articles in magazines back then which said that he'd conceived of both a 2nd and 3rd...

I mentioned in another thread that I'd asked him about it in '85 or 86; the only way I could have known was if it was public knowledge. The specific magazine reference I remember said that the whole concept for 6 more books came to him in one big bang... it was all there. And he answered me directly: "I have it all up here [in his head], but I'm not sure if I'm brave enough." It's not as if he's now making it up that he thought of it years ago so he could justify writing it ...

At the same time, saying he conceived it is not the same as having written it. In other words, the "big picture" -- how he intends to resolve the situation, the "big lessons" for the characters -- he has known since the 80s. But the actual writing is happening now, and as others have said he's a different writer with different priorities.

alanm wrote:I think the biggest issue is that after re-reading TWl and TC discovers how LF did not die at the end of the first chrons was because the staff had been destroyed. LF was able to shelter at the only power able to preserve him, earthpower. TC pays for this knowledge with his own blood. At the end of WGW we have a new living staff of law (provided by the wisdom of the dead in andelain). TC even says to linden that she has to heal the land otherwise the sunbane will bring LF back. So we have a new living staff of law, remember what vain said (together we will redeem the earth) and no sunbane. To my mind the only 2 powers that LF could hope to save him are gone.

I am pretty sure that there's another option available. Could not TC, as Time Warden and Arch of Time and Wild Magic incarnate, not have power enough to restore Lord Foul?

I'm not saying he'd want to. But if he was unable to prevent it, because things had become "intertwined" to a great degree.

As I said, the only 2 powers that could bring LF back are gone. TC would never allow LF to come back. What things could become 'intertwined' to allow LF to survive at the end of WGW. He flung his utmost force at TC until he went out and the ring landed on the floor. Then TC said to linden, pick it up its yours now. etc etc

TC and Lord Foul are the same thing, though. While one exists, the other cannot die.

From a SRD interview in October 1991 (you can find it on SRD's official website). Doesn't prove the point that the 3rd chronicles were devised as he wrote the second but...well...I think it's relevant to this discussion:

Are you going to write The Third Chronicles?

I don't know if I'm going to write it or not. I am a naturally born stubborn person ad the more people push me to write it the less likely I am to do it. I want to be able to make my writing decisions from conviction and strength, not from pressure and need. If my writing career collapses and the only way I can feed my children is by writing Covenant books then I will go become a plumber because I do not want to write on that basis. I have a very pure idea of what storytelling is about, and I want to preserve that. For me, whenever I am going to start a new project the main question is: would I write the same story if I could never find a publisher? If the answer is yes then I write it. If the answer is that I am writing it because they want to publish it then I don't write it.

emphasis is mine

I recently got my brother to start in on the chronicles and he was PISSED when he got to the wounded land. Easily as angry as many people here are angry about the last chronicles. His exact words were "Where'd everyone go? All the villages are gone, the giants are gone, the haruchai are gone... and wtf, snake bites and bugs and the sunbane?"

I just laughed because he was only 150 pages in at that point and I know where everything is eventually going, but it got me thinking... when I first read the first and second chronicles I was probably 13 years old, and hardly as critical a reader as I am today. Would I have been as outraged and bothered by the second chronicles, and the HUGE departure that they represent from the first chronicles, if I read them for the first time today?

Is our real issue with the last chronicles merely that our expectations rise and our disbelief grows less able to be suspended with our age?

We're just a bunch of old cynical bastards who have lost our sense of wonder?

Well, this old cynical bastard hasn't.

danlo wrote:We're just a bunch of old cynical bastards who have lost our sense of wonder?

Well, this old cynical bastard hasn't.

Says the old cynical bastard.

Emotional Leper wrote:

danlo wrote:We're just a bunch of old cynical bastards who have lost our sense of wonder?

Well, this old cynical bastard hasn't.

Says the old cynical bastard.

I agree with danlo
Second old cynical bastard.

Seppi2112 wrote:I recently got my brother to start in on the chronicles and he was PISSED when he got to the wounded land. Easily as angry as many people here are angry about the last chronicles. His exact words were "Where'd everyone go? All the villages are gone, the giants are gone, the haruchai are gone... and wtf, snake bites and bugs and the sunbane?"

That's interesting because I, too, didn't start the Covenant series until about a year or so ago, after purchasing all six books. I read the first trilogy and was thoroughly burned out by the time I got to the end. SRD is really tough on Covenant in that first series.

But then, just two weeks later I took a peak at The Wounded Land and was instantly taken by it. In a way, I kept thinking that maybe the Lords and such will work their way back into the story somehow - some new beginning that TC will start. But I was never really pissed about it. I thought the sunbane was a cool diversion - but I did miss the epic level battle scenes.

Seppi2112 wrote:Is our real issue with the last chronicles merely that our expectations rise and our disbelief grows less able to be suspended with our age?

Not sure about the latter half of that question, but I certainly see expectation as an issue. If the last chronicles were written and published and ready to go following the second chronicles, I doubt anyone would be pissy about it at all. It's as much a diversion as the second chronicles was - actually less when you think about it. It feels like more like an extension of the second chronicles to me.

Emotional Leper wrote:TC and Lord Foul are the same thing, though. While one exists, the other cannot die.

but TC did die and was brought back from the dead. He even says that LF could have banished him if he had been thinking correctly. It was TCs spirit that was place between LF and the arch of time. TCs spirit was made into wild magic by LF and LF extinguished himself by trying to get past TC.

cheers

I'm just waiting for TC and Foul to meet and here TC say something along the lines of, "Old Friend."

Re: As I said, the only 2 powers that could bring LF back are gone.

How did Foul grow back after the Ritual of Desecration? The Staff certainly existed still then. Also, Foul is an immortal. His spirit at least will always exist. His ability to incarnate himself may (or may not) be lost but as long as despite exists in principle so will Foul.

Aleksandr wrote:Re: As I said, the only 2 powers that could bring LF back are gone.

How did Foul grow back after the Ritual of Desecration? The Staff certainly existed still then. Also, Foul is an immortal. His spirit at least will always exist. His ability to incarnate himself may (or may not) be lost but as long as despite exists in principle so will Foul.

we can't ever know what made LF come back after the ritual of desecration, all we have to go on are the facts as written in the books we have. We know absolutely that LF was able to survive after TPTP because the staff of law had been destroyed, this we are told. We also know, because TC says so, that the sunbane will bring him back if Linden does not heal the land. We know that this is achieve because it is written in WGW.

So far, in the ROTE and FR, we have had no reference as to how LF survived.


regards