Kevin's Watch

The whole "You are the white gold" issue seems to be a big matter in this discussion. I agree with the line of thought that the power of the ring is not in the metal of the thing, but is inherent in the one who wields it. SRD has said as much in the GI:

From my perspective, the question of "tools" is secondary. As I've said before, in "The Chronicles" power ultimately comes from the living will and heart of the being who wields it, not from the means by which that power is wielded. Sure, particular tools are designed for specific purposes. It's difficult to drive nails with a chisel. But it isn't the hammer that drives the nail: it's the man or woman using the hammer. In this sense (if in no other: I'm not sure how far I'm prepared to follow this line of reasoning today), the Staff of Law and white gold and the Illearth Stone and orcrest etc. etc. are comparable to mundane tools. (Although a nail-gun might be a better analogy, since nail-guns run on electricity, and electricity can be compared to Earthpower without too much strain....)

Covenant is not the physical material that constitutes the ring; there's something in him that makes (made?) his ownership of the ring a fitting and natural outgrowth of who he is.

The fact that Roger didn't just go purchase his own white gold ring to take to the Land does sort of imply that the one TC had was special; or rather, that TC was special and the fact that he owned a white gold ring only made him a natural choice (by whomever: LF or Creator). I am definitely not, however, willing to entertain the notion of the entire universe of the Land having been forged with TC and his ring in mind by the Creator. That's just waaaay too convenient.

earthbrah wrote:From my perspective, the question of "tools" is secondary. As I've said before, in "The Chronicles" power ultimately comes from the living will and heart of the being who wields it, not from the means by which that power is wielded.

But the choice of the tool is also important.

In [u]The One Tree[/u] was wrote:... "All power is an articulation of its wielder. There is no other source than life-and the desire of that life to express itself. But there must also be a means of articulation. I can say little but that this pitch is my chosen means. Having said that, I have left you scarce wiser than before."

Linden shrugged away his disclaimer. "Then what you're saying," she murmured slowly, "is that the power of wild magic comes from Covenant himself? The ring is just his-his means of articulation?"

He nodded. "I believe that to be sooth. But the means controls intimately the nature of what may be expressed. By my pitch I may accomplish nothing for the knitting of broken limbs, just as no theurgy of the flesh may seal stone as I do."

Musing half to herself, she replied, "That fits. At least with what Covenant says about the Staff of Law. Before it was destroyed. It supported the Law by its very nature. Only certain kinds of things could be done with it."

The means controlls intimately the nature of what may be expressed.

For that reason is the ring important.

earthbrah wrote:The fact that Roger didn't just go purchase his own white gold ring to take to the Land does sort of imply that the one TC had was special; or rather, that TC was special and the fact that he owned a white gold ring only made him a natural choice (by whomever: LF or Creator). I am definitely not, however, willing to entertain the notion of the entire universe of the Land having been forged with TC and his ring in mind by the Creator. That's just waaaay too convenient.

The ring Covenant had WAS special - that I believe. But not, necessarilly, in an arbitrary way. It's special because of what it represents to Covenant. Commitment. Love. Joan. Loss. Fidelity. Sharing. Any ring Roger would buy in a store could not have that baggage attached to it.

(Furthermore, I don't buy into the idea that the idea that Covenant being chosen long after the creation implies that the Creator could not have had Covenant in mind. He stands outside of time; you might even imagine he exists simultaneously in all times. The time that he created the Earth, to him, is the same time that he threw Foul down into it, is the same time that he (or ) chose Covenant. This makes some things very possible.)

It was Covenant and that blasted ring of his that undid Foul...

Twice..

Foul's ego will not permit him to admit failure to a lesser being then himself. He must have that ring so he can keep proclaiming his superoity.
It has become an obsession to Foul.

So Roger becomes his faired haired boy.

wayfriend wrote:

earthbrah wrote:The fact that Roger didn't just go purchase his own white gold ring to take to the Land does sort of imply that the one TC had was special; or rather, that TC was special and the fact that he owned a white gold ring only made him a natural choice (by whomever: LF or Creator). I am definitely not, however, willing to entertain the notion of the entire universe of the Land having been forged with TC and his ring in mind by the Creator. That's just waaaay too convenient.

The ring Covenant had WAS special - that I believe. But not, necessarilly, in an arbitrary way. It's special because of what it represents to Covenant. Commitment. Love. Joan. Loss. Fidelity. Sharing. Any ring Roger would buy in a store could not have that baggage attached to it.

I think this is extremely important. Why does Donaldson claim he needs the ring more than Tolkien did? It is precisely due to the things you mentioned, WF. It's not just the metal (though the idea of an alloy plays an important part in the symbolism). Roger couldn't just go out and buy one because then SRD wouldn't have needed it to be a ring; any white gold alloy trinket would have been sufficient. He needs it to be a ring because of the baggage you mentioned. That's what's important.

But when we move to the Land and its world, to those people, the white gold metal itself is what's important. They don't talk in terms of all this "baggage," though those issues are important to them in many other ways (commitment, love, etc.). This is another way of saying that the symbolism and its structure doesn't move two ways between the Land and Covenant's world. What is literal in the Land is figurative in Covenant's world.

(Furthermore, I don't buy into the idea that the idea that Covenant being chosen long after the creation implies that the Creator could not have had Covenant in mind. He stands outside of time; you might even imagine he exists simultaneously in all times. The time that he created the Earth, to him, is the same time that he threw Foul down into it, is the same time that he (or ) chose Covenant. This makes some things very possible.)

And time moves differently in the Land vs TC's world. Who is to say when exactly the Land's world was created? When TC was born? When he got married and put on the white gold for the first time (since white gold is the Keystone in the Arch of Time)?? Though other people have traveled to the Land with TC, they are always his family: his new "wife," his ex-wife, his son. (Hile Troy was never confirmed to have a separate existence outside of TC's mind). This is, and will always be, the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.