Kevin's Watch

Seppi2112 wrote:Theo doesn't have knowledge of the future - he has access to the natural progression of time... that's why he appears to be in multiple places at once (but notice these shadows never appear further from Theo than we could expect him to be able to move in real space - sort of like quantum fluctuations).

It's as if he pulls Roger out of time by sensing the disturbance, not necessarily by knowing exactly what SHOULD have happened.

Unfortunately you are simply dead wrong.

It is clearly stated in the book that he thought that rogers present course was "to dangerous" and pulled him out of his time jump 500 years and many miles off course. He apparently knew ahead of time what they were going to do and chose to alter it because he KNOWS the total progress of time from his natural time forward. Even being able to explain away time paradoxes and fitting the changes in closely enough with future details and understandings.

I know i am going to get scolded for this but.... its just to irritating.

[RANT]
Do people actually pay attention to what they are reading? Its like thread after thread of discussions based of false information. when most of the time the facts are clearly stated in the books.
[/RANT]

Hellbinder, anyone - Do we know from what time does the Theomach originate from? Or has he become timeless once he mastered the arts of time? If he comes from Linden's second return to the Land time his knowledge is easily explained.

The Madoubt seemed to say that he came from a time later than Covenant's first visits to the Land (or at least Kevin's) but if that is so how could the Vizard give the Theomach's true name to the Haruchai of Berek's time? They would be able to use it to control the Theomach in his younger years before he decided to travel to the past.

Hellbinder wrote:

Seppi2112 wrote:Theo doesn't have knowledge of the future - he has access to the natural progression of time... that's why he appears to be in multiple places at once (but notice these shadows never appear further from Theo than we could expect him to be able to move in real space - sort of like quantum fluctuations).

It's as if he pulls Roger out of time by sensing the disturbance, not necessarily by knowing exactly what SHOULD have happened.

Unfortunately you are simply dead wrong.

It is clearly stated in the book that he thought that rogers present course was "to dangerous" and pulled him out of his time jump 500 years and many miles off course. He apparently knew ahead of time what they were going to do and chose to alter it because he KNOWS the total progress of time from his natural time forward. Even being able to explain away time paradoxes and fitting the changes in closely enough with future details and understandings.

I know i am going to get scolded for this but.... its just to irritating.

[RANT]
Do people actually pay attention to what they are reading? Its like thread after thread of discussions based of false information. when most of the time the facts are clearly stated in the books.
[/RANT]

Perhaps you mean "too dangerous".

I do not think it is justified to flame an entire forum just because you _think_ you are right. The very existence of these fora means that there are loads of so called "facts" in these books that can still be debated over and over. And things that _appear_ to be facts in Book 2 of a Chronicle can still prove to be wrong a volume later. Assumptions.

The Theomach's natural time was that of Berek's, at least that's what Donaldson said in the GI. He was an expert of time, that much is clear, but that does not make him necessarily omniscient. He may have known enough about time to feel Roger's presence or his travelling backwards in the flow of time and descry his intentions enough to take actions.

But the Madoubt said he designed his lore lessons to Berek to suit the way history was supposed to progress without his interference. He studied the history between Berek's time to Kevin's (if not even later) to know what to do. If he taught him something that contradicted the history Covenant learned there would have been a time-paradox. For example the Madoubt mentions that he introduced Linden's party as Unfettered because he knew Unfettered existed in the first chronicles.

This says he didn't belonged in Berek's time. If he did there would have been no paradoxes no matter what he did.

Also, if he belonged in Berek's time and presumably died or was incorporated in Brinn when he beat him for the One Tree guardianship how could Jeremiah know him? Even if he started visiting the Land immediately after he got catatonic and not years later when Linden gave him the race-tracks he would have entered the Land after the Theomach was gone.

We still do not know IMHO whether all the things Jeremiah said were his thoughts or the croyel's.

Also you might consider the possibility that Jeremiah's connection with the Land actually began at the bonfire when he thrust his hands into it.

Hellbinder wrote:Do people actually pay attention to what they are reading? Its like thread after thread of discussions based of false information. when most of the time the facts are clearly stated in the books.

Lol... you'd do well to pick your targets better for a rant like that...

Moreso, simply because he thought it was too dangerous in no way means that he knows the things you claim... my comment is that he doesn't have to have exact knowledge like many people (who read incorrectly it appears) claim... after all, SRD has HARDLY explained the way these powers actually work and I think we give Theo too much credit.

Perhaps _you_ should be reading more carefully

The Theomach was comtempary to Berek's time; he didn't perform his actions to suit what history would have been without him. Otherwise Berek wouldn't have reached the one tree.

The Theomach wasn't a Time-Traveller people; he was a Time-Seer. The Mahdoubt sums it up when she talks of Theo's powers being greater than hers.

It is true that the Theomach didn't travel from the future. He merely sees the future.

However, I am at a loss to come up with a way in which someone FROM the future and someone who can SEE the future are significantly different. Both of them are people who KNOW the future.

The ability to alter the course of history towards or away from the known version of history is the same. The risk of paradox is the same. The advantage of foreknowledge is the same.

This means that the Theomach has no choice - has no choice - in whether or not he chooses his actions to suit history. He MUST. He can't kill Berek, or else paradox will rip the Arch apart. Just as similarly, he can't become well known, or be known to be Insequent, or even become associated with one of Berek's decisions -- this would also rip the Arch apart. He can't even decide to NOT teach Berek - this would rip the Arch apart. He's constrained to be exactly what future history knows him to be - unknown - and to do exactly what future history compels him to have done.

However, we may indeed be giving him too much credit. His knowledge of the future may be far less encompassing than we give him credit.

I wonder if it was not the Time Warden who warned the Theomach that Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah were time-hopping. It may be that THAT is what the Time Warden does -- makes sure someone fixes these kinds of problems. Because -- if his word remains true - he does not use power.

On the other hand, the Theomach certainly has SOME time-travel ability. His apparent ability to move across space instantly, to waver before ones eyes, hints at some control over his temporality. And the Mahdoubt can indeed travel through time, but claims that the Theomach surpasses her abilities.

So, just because the Theomach hasn't travelled to Berek's time is no indication that he cannot time travel either. His knowledge of the future may have come from travelling to the future -- and then travelling back.

One things for sure -- this hurts the head.

He does have a choice, within his own time span, if the Theomach had done things differently then bereks and the Lands history would have been different. Whilst he was at the nexus of his own story, there was no future time yet, no Linden. He could have acted any way he wanted, seen as the future hadn't, happened so he couldn't threaten the Arch.

Of course once his nexus had past, and the future had indeed happened, he had to conform to known events.

Damn paradox's...

Revan wrote:He does have a choice, within his own time span, if the Theomach had done things differently then bereks and the Lands history would have been different.

I agree with that -- for normal cases.

But what if he has knowledge from the future that history went a specific certain way? Is he still, then, free to make whatever history he chooses?

What would happen if the Theomach does things differently, and history unfolds differently, and the result is different from what the future has shown him would happen?