Kevin's Watch

Are we sure that Atiaran didn't use the Staff? It would solve a lot of problems if we assume that she borrowed the staff from her granddaughter to do the summoning. She got burned and the Staff of course didn't (just like Mhoram singed his hands while using the Krill without doing any harm to the Krill)

Saying that she was using Desecration levels of power to summon him doesn't really explain anything. Sure, that makes your magic more powerful but it doesn't make impossible things possible, just hard things easier. And if the Staff of Law is needed to summon someone from our world you'll need the Staff to do it. Unless you broke some Law...

But is Atiaran that powerful even if we assume she discovered the secrets of Desecration? Her husband Trell knew the secret but all he could manage to do with it is burn a room and melt its walls a bit, nothing close to what Kevin could do. Compared to the other Law Breakers, Elena with the Blood of the Earth and Caer Caveral with the Krill her power levels are laughable.

To support this we are told that Elena is the one who comes to try and stop the ceremony when it's too late and and finds Hile Troy. Could she have been a consenting participant sitting nearby?

Also, when Mhoram wants to summon Thomas Covenant for the third time some of the other Lords are doubtful that it's possible without the Staff. If Hile Troy was summoned without it, however imperfectly, surely the Lords could do it as well some years later?


I have a hunch about the two summoning of Thomas Covenant in TPTP which DO occur without the Staff. Could the dead Elena have lent a hand from afar with her Staff of Law to Mhoram and later to Triok and Foamfollower?

Mhoram is surprised at the ease with which he manages to do it. Covenant is near death, making the process easier but he was close to death in all the summonings if we think about it. In the IllEarth War summoning Covenant is told several times that he would die if he isn't healed with Hurtloam immediately, and when the police car hits him in the first book he might well have died if he wasn't taken post haste to a hospital and seen to.

We know that Elena is capable of influencing things from afar. She turns the moon bloody all over the Land if not everywhere, She holds the entire Land under the perpetual grip of a cloudy winter, she apparently sustains the raver army in some way at the gates of Revelstone.

It's entirely possible that she exerts her will on the Stuff to make any summoning of Covenant by people in the Land possible and easy.

After all the entire war effort of Lord Foul would come to waste if no one would be able to summon Thomas Covenant and his white gold ring in the end.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Are we sure that Atiaran didn't use the Staff? It would solve a lot of problems if we assume that she borrowed the staff from her granddaughter to do the summoning. She got burned and the Staff of course didn't (just like Mhoram singed his hands while using the Krill without doing any harm to the Krill)

Saying that she was using Desecration levels of power to summon him doesn't really explain anything. Sure, that makes your magic more powerful but it doesn't make impossible things possible, just hard things easier. And if the Staff of Law is needed to summon someone from our world you'll need the Staff to do it. Unless you broke some Law...

But is Atiaran that powerful even if we assume she discovered the secrets of Desecration? Her husband Trell knew the secret but all he could manage to do with it is burn a room and melt its walls a bit, nothing close to what Kevin could do. Compared to the other Law Breakers, Elena with the Blood of the Earth and Caer Caveral with the Krill her power levels are laughable.

Trell is no Kevin. You're right in that no matter what lore secrets Trell happens to know, his personal ability wouldn't allow him to take it very far. It's like giving a fine tool to someone lacking the skill to wield it properly.

In the case of EarthBlood, nobody, or apparently no human, has the infinite wisdom required to wield the Command properly. And it is likely to rebound back on the wielder as it did with Elena.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:To support this we are told that Elena is the one who comes to try and stop the ceremony when it's too late and and finds Hile Troy. Could she have been a consenting participant sitting nearby?

I believe the answer to part of that is unknown, or as SRD would say, outside the text. I would think, however, that if she had been a participant then this fact would have appeared in the text.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Also, when Mhoram wants to summon Thomas Covenant for the third time some of the other Lords are doubtful that it's possible without the Staff. If Hile Troy was summoned without it, however imperfectly, surely the Lords could do it as well some years later?

Every council in existence and large enough has its Doubting Thomases.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I have a hunch about the two summoning of Thomas Covenant in TPTP which DO occur without the Staff. Could the dead Elena have lent a hand from afar with her Staff of Law to Mhoram and later to Triok and Foamfollower?

If the answer to that one is not contained in the text, then I would have to say "no."

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Mhoram is surprised at the ease with which he manages to do it. Covenant is near death, making the process easier but he was close to death in all the summonings if we think about it. In the IllEarth War summoning Covenant is told several times that he would die if he isn't healed with Hurtloam immediately, and when the police car hits him in the first book he might well have died if he wasn't taken post haste to a hospital and seen to.

However, the fact that Covenant was near death on this particular occasion tipped the balance in favor of his being summoned.

Also, we don't know if Covenant was actually hit by a police car. He seems to have simply fallen over in the street.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:We know that Elena is capable of influencing things from afar. She turns the moon bloody all over the Land if not everywhere, She holds the entire Land under the perpetual grip of a cloudy winter, she apparently sustains the raver army in some way at the gates of Revelstone.

It's entirely possible that she exerts her will on the Stuff to make any summoning of Covenant by people in the Land possible and easy.

After all the entire war effort of Lord Foul would come to waste if no one would be able to summon Thomas Covenant and his white gold ring in the end.

As if to say LF hadn't devised some kind of alternate scheme which we don't know about.

Certainly the very existence of the Staff, with or without Elena's effort, lent some help to the summinings in TPTP. TWL demonstrated how horribly difficult summonings are without them.

wayfriend wrote:Certainly the very existence of the Staff, with or without Elena's effort, lent some help to the summinings in TPTP. TWL demonstrated how horribly difficult summonings are without them.

[Covenant] asked, "But how? I thought only the Staff of Law-"
"Much has been broken by the fall of High Lord Elena," Triock retorted. "The Land has not yet tasted all the consequences of that evil. But the Staff made possible certain expressions of power-and limited others. Now that limit is gone. Do you not feel the malice of this winter?"

Yes, Triock, like the Council of Lords, believed that the Staff was destroyed when Elena fell. They were mistaken, of course. The malice in the winter wasn't possible due to the loss of the Staff, but in fact was possible by the Staff maliciously used.