Kevin's Watch

The Dreaming wrote:I guess part of it has to do with the fact that I am about as jaded by psychics in fiction as I am by Vampires. I'm even more annoyed by the fact that the idea of psychic powers has actually bled OUT of fiction and into the real world. Most people don't realize exactly how fantastic the idea of prescience, telepathy and telekinesis really is, which is to say TOTALLY FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE.

To be fair, the presence of psychics in Watchmen is kept to a minimum (I doubt there were any even shown, only mentioned). It's not like psychic vampires are walking everywhere. Only real life, which is less cool and inconsistent than Moore's works, is lame enough to do that.

Q: Does it matter at all that Comedian is SS2's daddy?

I mean, to the story it doesn't mean anything, to the '86 reader, it means that superheroes are sinners too...right?

What was that big, weird silver and black horned cat thing about? Where did that come from?

It had to do with Ozy's experiments at his arctic station...more to do with the comic story than the films...

Well, now I am here, I can add some bits to this.

Initially, I liked the new ending. Upon reflection, I think it falls on its face.

At first, I was impressed by the new ending. I quite enjoyed it, and I quite understood the reason for doing it, or at least I felt I did. Not the least of which is, there has to be some twist for the novel-fans, because a movie without surprises isn't much fun.

I like movies with economy, that use existing elements in new ways rather than throw in new elements that tread darn close to deus ex. Let's face it, when the bad guy pulls the unheralded ultimate weapon out of an oriface in the climax scene, it's kinda lame.

Here's the problem. Dr. Manhatten sucks as a common enemy that will unite humanity. For two reasons. One, he's got no plausible reason to want to kill millions of people. Second, there is no way to fight against him -- he is, in every respect, a god. How do you defend against a god?

Sure, the US and the Soviet Union might drop their disagreements and unite ... for about five days. Then it will sink in that it's pointless. If Manhattan wants to wipe people out, there's literally nothing anyone can do. What would follow would be hell. Either people would believe that life on Earth was about to end, or that they need to appease their new god through worship and sacrifice. Hedonism, massacres, extreme religious fanatics, looting, riots .... it would be the end of civilization, even if Manhattan never did a single other thing (or Veidt, for that matter).

Maybe you can sew it back together by having Veidt continue the charade - new incidents, new atrocities. But once is arguably a necessary evil... piling more on only makes Veidt a demon who believes he is an angel, praying on humanity for his idea of good.

So, at the end, I'm disappointed at the ending. Not because its changed, but because the replacement has no legs to stand on.

Was the original any more able to withstand those criticisms, though?

wayfriend, that is a seriously good argument, much better than my own reason for being unmoved by the new ending. I didn't hate the new twist, but just shrugged at it. I felt that having Doc Manhattan be the scapegoat defeated the rationale behind Veidt's scheme - that it had to be an impartial outside party (the "alien" monster) that would be the catalyst for uniting the two superpowers. But with Dr. Manhattan, the Soviets would have been able to lay the blame for all the destruction at the Americans' feet, regardless of Manhattan's "traitorous" actions. I can see how the Soviets could claim the moral/political high ground: "it was uncontrolled experiments and the unending ambition for power in America that led to the abomination of Manhattan - and the rest of the world has paid the price."

matrixman wrote:I felt that having Doc Manhattan be the scapegoat defeated the rationale behind Veidt's scheme - that it had to be an impartial outside party (the "alien" monster) that would be the catalyst for uniting the two superpowers.

I think the set-up in the movie was sufficient that, by the end, humanity DID believe Dr. Manhattan was an alien - he was inhuman and had no empathy for humanity. The interview. The cancer. And the destruction of so many US cities is certainly argument enough that Manhattan was no longer on America's side.

I think Veidt's scheme depended on having an enemy that could be plausibly combatted with world unity, such that it would be the choice world leaders would immediately make. That's where I see the ending failing.

Good points Wayfriend. I think that's the main problem for me as well, and for all my debating I couldn't express it. What could they do against Manhattan?

It just doesn't feel realistic. After a time they would get over it, much like increased patriotism after 9/11 subsided. With the alien you've got something you can defeat, invest programs, weapons, money and media in and make people believe whatever you put out. It's the ultimate Fascist lie--that an alien race is attacking, and we must prepare for it.

I attempted to buy the GN to get a better appreciation of the Watchmen, but I'm too cheap, I'm not paying 20 bucks for a comic book...

danlo wrote:I attempted to buy the GN to get a better appreciation of the Watchmen, but I'm too cheap, I'm not paying 20 bucks for a comic book...

....danlo.

Watchmen is worth more than most of our libraries put together. Its quality and artistry transcends the ages, blah blah blah. Put down 20 damn dollars! It'll be the best buy you made during the economic downturn.

Danlo, you can have my Watchmen GN if you want it.

I'll take it! I'm so cheap....HOW CHEAP ARE YOU JOHNNY? haw, haw, haw >Ed McMahon voice< ...I found a copy at CostCo today for 11.94 and still wouldn't buy it...(but I did browse like hell )

For the $20 I paid for it back in the Eighties, I've been rewarded many times over in my re-readings of the book. But, hey, if you can get it for free, why not?

(Gives a Rorschach shrug)

wayfriend wrote:

matrixman wrote:I felt that having Doc Manhattan be the scapegoat defeated the rationale behind Veidt's scheme - that it had to be an impartial outside party (the "alien" monster) that would be the catalyst for uniting the two superpowers.

I think the set-up in the movie was sufficient that, by the end, humanity DID believe Dr. Manhattan was an alien - he was inhuman and had no empathy for humanity. The interview. The cancer. And the destruction of so many US cities is certainly argument enough that Manhattan was no longer on America's side.

I think Veidt's scheme depended on having an enemy that could be plausibly combatted with world unity, such that it would be the choice world leaders would immediately make. That's where I see the ending failing.

Outside party or god-like being, whether humanity would be able to fight back is immaterial. It's the shift of seeing the human enemy (Russia) as an ally in a possibly futile fight that's important. In either case, the lack of a visible enemy (2 years, tops) would see the old political patterns resurfacing--unless something else came along that offered hope of resistance.

The first thing that would happen is Viedt would step forward with his off-shoot of Manhattan's power as a new energy source. From that point on, moving away from oil and nuclear power toward this new energy source would change humanity's culture, and quickly. Permanently.

How else would you defend against Dr. Manhattan but with his own power?

Disclaimer: I never read the GN and just saw the movie today, but wasn't one of Viedt's purposes in saving humanity to create an alternative energy source? And if that power was used to create the demand for it, isn't that just wicked irony?

Just bought this and saw it today. Never saw the movie in theaters and never read the comic. I gotta say, it was pretty darn good. Good, dark, quality filming and tons of fun. Very interesting depth and interesting characters.

-jay

Lord Foul wrote:It just doesn't feel realistic. After a time they would get over it, much like increased patriotism after 9/11 subsided.

Moore realized that, which is why the discovery of Rorschach's diary was the ending scene.

Manhatten could continue the charade without killing anyone...

...after a couple years attack this or that, wouldn't take him much effort or thought...

...just enough to lovingly keep humanity on their toes