Kevin's Watch

rusmeister wrote:

Seven Words wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:From what I have read about spirituality, most forms of it err on the side of being non-violent. A fundamental tenet of most faiths is "do not harm others" and violence clearly violates this tenet.

Even most martial art forms, many of which include elements of spirituality, train the student to use only as much violence as is needed to defuse a situation. Throw an attacker --> if he gets up and attacks again then hurt him a little --> if he continues to attack then make sure he feels it --> if he continues to attack then maim/cripple him --> if he continues to attack then make sure he cannot continue anymore, preferrably by knocking him out.

just now got back to this thread....

The martial art I practice does NOT ascribe to "minimum necessary violence". Cimande styles of Pencak Silat assume ANY need to defend yourself your life is on the line. The emphasis is to do maximum damage in minimum time, as 1-on-1 is the exception rather than the rule. Thus, the emphasis on destructions....knee-breaker kicks...impaling punching fists onto elbow point to break hand...takedowns with arm holds to separate the shoulder. As you progress, less permanently crippling methods are taught, which are derived from the brutal basics. Rather than joint breaks, more precise muscle destructions.... then on to nerve strikes.

And to not thread derail....we are a very spiritual style. We develop the "Warrior Mind", or "Combat Trance", where our killer instinct (to use the western psychological term) is brought to the fore, and even projected. W project our spiritual energy (well, the advanced level people do) into our strikes, to damage our opponents body AND the flow of their energy.

This mentality, this approach, turns a lot of people off of our style. *shrug* I am VERY comfortable with this approach to fighting...."Avoid it if you can, if unavoidable do EVERYTHING to win."

I'm constantly struck by the assumption people hold that spirituality is essentially a necessary good. To me it is obvious that it can be equally an evil spirituality as a good one; in fact, I find it far more likely that if there is any truth to our lives (which there logically must be) then if spirits (something far more concrete and honest than a nebulous "spirituality") are pulling people in different directions, then most of them must not be good, however fair-seeming the direction.

But in any event, the assumption that spirituality is a good thing is not rational.

On "do EVERYTHING", I can imagine quite a few unambiguously immoral acts in that word, such as raping helpless little girls, etc. So there has to be a moral qualifier.

Let me add, since it didn't get addressed, that I consider ALL humans to have been born tainted. We are NOT glorified animals. We are broken gods. We are Fallen and are less than what we ought to be. But I do not consider anyone to be born 'especially' tainted.

If there IS a struggle between good and evil, then organization in the name of good is obviously better than its absence, though it is granted that an evil religion could also be organized. Looks like that word "organized" is treated as an unqualified negative around here.

Seven Words wrote:

rusmeister wrote:

Seven Words wrote: just now got back to this thread....

The martial art I practice does NOT ascribe to "minimum necessary violence". Cimande styles of Pencak Silat assume ANY need to defend yourself your life is on the line. The emphasis is to do maximum damage in minimum time, as 1-on-1 is the exception rather than the rule. Thus, the emphasis on destructions....knee-breaker kicks...impaling punching fists onto elbow point to break hand...takedowns with arm holds to separate the shoulder. As you progress, less permanently crippling methods are taught, which are derived from the brutal basics. Rather than joint breaks, more precise muscle destructions.... then on to nerve strikes.

And to not thread derail....we are a very spiritual style. We develop the "Warrior Mind", or "Combat Trance", where our killer instinct (to use the western psychological term) is brought to the fore, and even projected. W project our spiritual energy (well, the advanced level people do) into our strikes, to damage our opponents body AND the flow of their energy.

This mentality, this approach, turns a lot of people off of our style. *shrug* I am VERY comfortable with this approach to fighting...."Avoid it if you can, if unavoidable do EVERYTHING to win."

I'm constantly struck by the assumption people hold that spirituality is essentially a necessary good. To me it is obvious that it can be equally an evil spirituality as a good one; in fact, I find it far more likely that if there is any truth to our lives (which there logically must be) then if spirits (something far more concrete and honest than a nebulous "spirituality") are pulling people in different directions, then most of them must not be good, however fair-seeming the direction.

But in any event, the assumption that spirituality is a good thing is not rational.

On "do EVERYTHING", I can imagine quite a few unambiguously immoral acts in that word, such as raping helpless little girls, etc. So there has to be a moral qualifier.

Let me add, since it didn't get addressed, that I consider ALL humans to have been born tainted. We are NOT glorified animals. We are broken gods. We are Fallen and are less than what we ought to be. But I do not consider anyone to be born 'especially' tainted.

If there IS a struggle between good and evil, then organization in the name of good is obviously better than its absence, though it is granted that an evil religion could also be organized. Looks like that word "organized" is treated as an unqualified negative around here.

You misconstrued what I said...I said, "approach to fighting...Avoid it if you can...." I don't see how raping a little girl relates in any way to defending yourself.

I don't use the word organized as an unqualified negative..I consider it a warning sign, indicates a potential and a tendency to negativity. Very strongly correlated. But not a predictor.

I think "spiritual" war is just transference excuse for the blatant disregard of human life we have as a species and fail to take responsibility for.

danlo wrote:We can find it within us--if we're not too lazy to work to open up that huge portion of our brain we don't use and open up that huge portion of our heart we don't use either...

danlo wrote:We can be as hypocritical as we want, we don't really have to practice them!!! No, no...don't love>love bad ooo very bad.)

danlo wrote:Advising people to consider following the Ten Commandments is using it for my own ends? Please, tradition aside, what's wrong with following them? Thou shalt not kill? What's wrong with that? Judge not? As above so below.

Ricky Gervais wrote:Jesus was a man. (And if you forget all that rubbish about being half God, and believe the non-supernatural acts accredited to him, he was a man whose wise words many other men would still follow.) His message was usually one of forgiveness and kindness. These are wonderful virtues but I have seen them discarded by many so-called God-fearers when it suits them. They cherry pick from their "rulebook" basically. I have seen such cruelty and prejudice performed in the name of Christianity (and many other religions for that matter) that it makes me wonder if there has been a bit too much selective reading and reinterpretation of the doctrines.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

I think "spiritual" war is just transference excuse for the blatant disregard of human life we have as a species and fail to take responsibility for.

Well, I think there's a jargon issue here; in Christian jargon, "spiritual warfare" does not mean warfare between humans. (it's explicitly described as a struggle "not against flesh and blood.")

Fist and Faith wrote:

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

I think "spiritual" war is just transference excuse for the blatant disregard of human life we have as a species and fail to take responsibility for.

Well, I think there's a jargon issue here; in Christian jargon, "spiritual warfare" does not mean warfare between humans. (it's explicitly described as a struggle "not against flesh and blood.")

Very good point. We don't always remember that we mean different things when we're using the same words.

Orlion wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Well, I think there's a jargon issue here; in Christian jargon, "spiritual warfare" does not mean warfare between humans. (it's explicitly described as a struggle "not against flesh and blood.")

Very good point. We don't always remember that we mean different things when we're using the same words.

Sometimes it carries over. The Inquisition, witch trials, and Crusades were no doubt viewed as being noble in spiritual aspects by their perpetrators. That's not to say that this is always the case, but it is often the case.

Another more modern example would be the Christian backlash against marriage equality (or same-sex marriage, if you will). This is viewed as part of a spiritual warfare against "God's established family unit", where opponents strive against 'flesh and blood' opponents (albeit, mostly in the politic arena).

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Well, except for the fact that black magic has the chance of actually hexing someone.
What you are describing just sounds like group resentment. Who quoted it recently...? "Holding on to resentment is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die." Love that quote...

dw

It’s easy when you read spiritual warrior literature to see exactly how prayer is like magic. Both involve working with energy. The primary difference is that magicians work with a code of ethics (even when it’s a code we don’t agree with) and prayer warriors don’t. There is no prohibition against “praying against” and maleficent prayers directed at people, organizations, cities and Gods are kosher. It’s the old trick of shoving the blame onto Yahweh and calling it his will, for if he is a just, merciful and true God then he surely filters the prayers. I think anyone who has given the Old Testament even a cursory glance is aware that Yahweh is not a God of peace, cooperation or encouraging of diversity.

Spiritual warfare is a moral and ethical cop-out. It’s the spiritual equivalent of the Fair Game doctrine. Dividing the world into black and white, and then declaring the wrong side of that divide open to an organized, ongoing negative energetic assault is not what I think Jesus meant when he said:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” — John 13:34-35

As a Wiccan I am willingly bound against willfully harming another. For me to pray against someone is inherently against my religious beliefs. At best, I can send negative energy sent my way back to the person who sent it, but to work against someone is unacceptable and will have real and serious repercussions for me. Hatred does its best work on those who hate, not those that are hated.

Hatred joined to prayer is just as dangerous and contemptible as “dark magic” because in its essence it’s the same thing. Giving your malefic intent a thin veneer of religion and the name of a God you perceive as just and merciful does not excuse your actions.