Kevin's Watch

matrixman wrote:

Dromond wrote:Wait! move it to vespers! Oh, there's already a thread there to discuss his music and passing and greatness, let's just post there... or, not.

That vespers thread ended up having little to do with Michael Jackson (except for Furls's entry).

Yeah, sorry for that, I didn't intend for it to turn out that way.

Thriller was an especially good album. After that, I wasn't so thrilled with him, but still quite a shame. Sad to think the Scarecrow from the Wiz is easin' on down the road.

But now I can live my lifelong dream of obtaining his bones and constructing a real zombie Michael Jackson.

Cagliostro wrote: Sad to think the Scarecrow from the Wiz is easin' on down the road.

I remember liking that movie as a kid. More fun than the original Wizard of Oz ever was.

And no worries, dlb, it wasn't your fault regarding that thread.

Mea maxima culpa, already!

My comments misinterpreting dlb's repartee with Menolly were removed Thursday evening, as were my responses to Dan's criticism of my original clerihew. What remains of my posts is nothing but commemoration of MJ. There is no reason the thread in Vespers cannot be used for further discussion of the late artist.

Let that be the end of it. I was wrong, but I'm not about to commit seppuku over it.

Lord Mhoram wrote:You guys really need to lighten up. Why is it that whenever any serious discussion on anything remotely political or socially conscious arises, it's immediately relegated to the Tank like it was nuclear fallout? It's really annoying.

That does not stop the topic being discussed. What can be stopped is your perception that the move represents 'waste disposal'.

Dromond wrote:Wow...
Before I go to work, the thread gets split because someone suggests it, banishes it to the tank where few venture...

Interesting criticism.

All I'll say is that he was a revolutionary pop artist, no matter what you think/thought of him personally. And he had a pretty horrible childhood.

The only song of his I like is, and will always be, Billie Jean.

JazFusion wrote:All I'll say is that he was a revolutionary pop artist, no matter what you think/thought of him personally. And he had a pretty horrible childhood.

The only song of his I like is, and will always be, Billie Jean.

It's odd how what I think of him personally got blown completely out the door when I saw this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Snxcm7cADA&feature=related

He was a great artist, incredibly talented. I wasnt a fan but did like a few of his songs.

I think his childhood was stolen by an ambitious and greedy father, and it scarred him in many ways we will never know about. I think he had a miserable existance despite the fortune and fame. I don't think it, or anything else in this life, brought him any lasting peace.

I pity him his miserable life, and the demons that tormented him throughout it.

iQuestor wrote:He was a great artist, incredibly talented. I wasnt a fan but did like a few of his songs.

I think his childhood was stolen by an ambitious and greedy father, and it scarred him in many ways we will never know about. I think he had a miserable existance despite the fortune and fame. I don't think it, or anything else in this life, brought him any lasting peace.

Exactly. I was beginning to think I was the only person of that opinion.

CovenantJr wrote:

iQuestor wrote:He was a great artist, incredibly talented. I wasnt a fan but did like a few of his songs.

I think his childhood was stolen by an ambitious and greedy father, and it scarred him in many ways we will never know about. I think he had a miserable existance despite the fortune and fame. I don't think it, or anything else in this life, brought him any lasting peace.

Exactly. I was beginning to think I was the only person of that opinion.

Its just a pity. I think he was a pedophile -- I think he was obsessed with young boys because he never got to be one. He never got to be a child at all. And it was all about acceptance -- from his father, his family, his fans. He never felt he got that either. He was just a pitiful, tormented soul. I cant sympathize with his problems, and cant accept his abuse of young boys, but I can try to be objective and try to understand why he was that way.

Very well said, iQuestor!

iQuestor wrote:

CovenantJr wrote:

iQuestor wrote:He was a great artist, incredibly talented. I wasnt a fan but did like a few of his songs.

I think his childhood was stolen by an ambitious and greedy father, and it scarred him in many ways we will never know about. I think he had a miserable existance despite the fortune and fame. I don't think it, or anything else in this life, brought him any lasting peace.

Exactly. I was beginning to think I was the only person of that opinion.

Its just a pity. I think he was a pedophile -- I think he was obsessed with young boys because he never got to be one. He never got to be a child at all. And it was all about acceptance -- from his father, his family, his fans. He never felt he got that either. He was just a pitiful, tormented soul. I cant sympathize with his problems, and cant accept his abuse of young boys, but I can try to be objective and try to understand why he was that way.

It's strange that we try with someone like Michael, but with other sex offenders they are accorded less sympathy than any other criminal, inside or out of jail. From all the testimony I've heard and witnessed (never mind the settlement he paid out), I had to side that he was indeed a child molester. When I was younger, I merely thought he was being spotted because of his facial surgeries--that he was a "freak" made it a logical extension he was a child molester, no evidence withstanding; but then when the evidence did come, I changed my views.

I wasn't bothered nor surprised he got so much coverage. Even if it overshadowed the deaths of those in Afghanistan or Iraq, something else would have. It's just the nature of news. The sad part of Jackson is, if someone tried to talk to him during his Thriller period, get him to stay satisfied with his face and not change anymore, he'd probably have totally rejected that suggestion, as his self-image was so screwed up. Any interview where he is questioned about his appearance (the Bashir interview comes to mind), he plays it off.

Lord Foul wrote: It's strange that we try with someone like Michael, but with other sex offenders they are accorded less sympathy than any other criminal, inside or out of jail. From all the testimony I've heard and witnessed (never mind the settlement he paid out), I had to side that he was indeed a child molester. When I was younger, I merely thought he was being spotted because of his facial surgeries--that he was a "freak" made it a logical extension he was a child molester, no evidence withstanding; but then when the evidence did come, I changed my views.

I wasn't bothered nor surprised he got so much coverage. Even if it overshadowed the deaths of those in Afghanistan or Iraq, something else would have. It's just the nature of news. The sad part of Jackson is, if someone tried to talk to him during his Thriller period, get him to stay satisfied with his face and not change anymore, he'd probably have totally rejected that suggestion, as his self-image was so screwed up. Any interview where he is questioned about his appearance (the Bashir interview comes to mind), he plays it off.

I dont try because he is famous. I am not a fan of his. I do not condone his bahavior and felt he belonged in jail or at least incarcerated where he couldnt hurt kids. I do pity him, and am somewhat revolted by him.

But I try to at least understand why he is the way he is because I know his (very public) story and even though I don't accept his pedophilia and freakishness, I personally understand child abuse and how an abusing parent can alter a child's worldview so profoundly that it permanantly scars the child and affects their adult behavior. I see and can sympathize with that in his story; If I didnt know that, then I would also write him off as a freak and a pervert and just a bad person.

That is no different than anyone else I might know or not know -- famous or otherwise. I may not like, understand or approve of their behavior, but if I know their story and can sympathize, then I can at least try to understandy why they are the way they are, even if I don't condone it.

IMO Michael Jackson is testimony that society can't truly tolerate people who want to live outside the norms. That he did so, and got to be rich and famous at the same time, was somehow intolerable to many people. This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

wayfriend wrote:IMO Michael Jackson is testimony that society can't truly tolerate people who want to live outside the norms. That he did so, and got to be rich and famous at the same time, was somehow intolerable to many people. This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

My desire to see him convicted arose out of my opinion that he is guilty of the crime. Until these issues arose, I had no problem with him as a person or as an entertainer, and my fascination with him was as much as a musician as anything.

I will say that adults who serve alcohol to children in order to have their way with them are certainliy demonstrably evil, but prior to that, his presence in the world made sense regardless of who he was, and did not require any "evil" to make it so.

wayfriend wrote:IMO Michael Jackson is testimony that society can't truly tolerate people who want to live outside the norms. That he did so, and got to be rich and famous at the same time, was somehow intolerable to many people. This gave rise to the scorn, the morbid fascination, and yes, the desire to see him convicted of pedophilia: because someone like that surely must be demonstrably evil for the world to make sense.

A lot of the "morbid fascination" was his own self-promotion (the surgical mask, a cue from Howard Hughes; the oxygen tank picture); it's similar to many celebrities who do stunts to stay in the public eye.

It's a little weird in these situations to be casting judgement on people you don't personally know. But yeah, celebrities you respect you find it a bit harder to completely want to believe negativity about. For instance, if the internet rumor mill said that Donaldson cut off two of his fingers and raped some girl, your first instinct would be, "no...not him." This is, of course, speaking to the people that haven't met him and have a better idea about the man than, say, me.
But back to the analogy, then you find out that the supposed woman is coming forward, and a court case is set. What would you think?
Then, suppose Donaldson was as big an author as, say, JK Rowling. What would you think now?
But then the evidence seems somewhat damning and it is settled out of court for a huge sum of money. How now brown cow?

I dunno - I try not to say with certainty about celebs. I dunno though. I didn't follow the case too closely, but from what I have gathered about the situation, and if the hearsay I've heard, I think he might have diddled the kiddles. It's not based on a whole lot of fact, but I could see it happening, which is sad. But I do try to avoid judgement based on hearsay.

Cag said:

It's a little weird in these situations to be casting judgement on people you don't personally know.

I disagree. MJ's childhood traumas and abuses are well documented, as are his eccentricities, behavioral problems and (IMHO) pedophilia. I have enough factual information to arrive at a conclusion about him.

Did you personally know Hitler? Gary GIlmore? Pol Pot? Jesse James? Lizzie Borden? None of us are supposed to cast judgement. However its hard not to in the case where we have horrible crimes committed , especially against children.

Partly, its the parents fault. I'd never let my pre-teen son spend the night alone with an adult male and sleep in the same bed. But I firmly beleive MJ did commit the crime, and the private settlements and other facts around the cases are not consistant with someone who is innocent of these crimes. After all, This isnt a traffic ticket to weigh wether its worth the trouble to fight; I cant see anyone who was innocent od pedophilia not fighting with all their strength to clear their name. MJ Paid off the parents and signed documents stating he wouldnt claim to be innocent. And by that, I judge him. I accept he had abuses and a pitiful life, and I can try to understand why he is the way he is, but I cant accept or excuse his crimes either.

Well, I'm not going to get into a Tank-like discussion here, and I definitely take your point.

All I know is that I hope when Weird Al Yankovic dies, I hope his memorial is a parody of Michael Jackson's.