Kevin's Watch

That's actually a good way of looking at it. One of the themes of the Gap series is guilt (or redemption?). Angus did experience guilt, and it is true that Nick never did. Angus does also redeem himself. But maybe I'm too hard on people - even hating oneself for one's actions is not enough in my book. Angus did too much nasty stuff.

I agree with ur-vile on this .. I dont even see how Angus can truly redeem himself for all the wrongs he perpetrated against Morn ..

Sure she see's him eventually as a diffferent person .. which infact he is .. he is constrained by his zone implants .. He acts differently because of his implants not because of a desire to .. and not because of any remorse ..

I see that he experiences some remorse for the bastard he was to Morn .. which is positive in his favour

.. he experiences some affection for Morn .. but even this smacks of the kind of dependance/relationship an abuser develops for the abused ..

I guess there are a lot of other elements in play too .. there is Davies .. Angus' son .. maybe this engenders some percieved connection by Angus for Morn .. [they share a kid] .. as it may have awakened some paternal instinct in Angus .. or not ..



I see Angus as a rapist, a murderer .. inscurpulous in the extreme sure .. one having endured horrendous abuse as a child .. sure .. but dont say because of his past .. he was not cognizant of his crimes or acted without volition ..

many experience vile life experiences and dont rape and murder .. it is still within his ability to choose how to act in given circumstances ..

to me it just spells out Angus' absolute lack of integrity ..

Nick was no good guy either .. but he did believe Morn consented to be with him .. prior to his discovering the truth ..

after that he was even more of a bastard .. but in the 'who's the most despicable race' .. I firmly believe pre-implant Angus was way more despicable .. and imo .. it isnt a fair contest to compair the Angus post-implant ..

And it is a common theme .. to regret .. but far better is it .. not to heinously wrong in the first place .. surely this is the definitive judge of character ..

[and I am not talking of the occasional mistake we all make and regret .. but on the scale of their wrongs against Morn and others .. I am talking heinous wrongs - no one is perfect - but that doesnt mean there isnt a visible/easily identifiable line we just dont cross]

I DEFINITELY didn't come around to liking Angus ... that wasn't what I meant ... I just thought that Nick was very close to as bad, and perhaps even less scrupulous.

By disliking Nick's character, I didn't mean to give the impression that I liked Angus'!

yeah .. they're both sick and twisted!!

Skyweir wrote:yeah .. they're both sick and twisted!!

At the very least.

Excellently said, Skyweir! Nice argument. I agree, Landwaster, that you never said you liked Angus. I'm just defending my favourite character, Captain Succorso. It's funny how SRD states that Angus is his favourite, though.

I suspect that Donaldson's preference of Angus is more in terms of what he felt he acheived as a writer rather than any actual affinity with the character. Angus has a wider range of experiences than either Morn or Nick, and is all the stronger a character for it.
You'll remember that SRD said at the end of The Real Story that he was dismayed that he had been able to create a character as vile and loathsome as Angus, and this was one of the reasons that the series nearly didn't make print. I think it's fairly safe to say that Angus abuse of Morn was far worse than Nick's, but I think it was Donaldson's intention to highlight their different reasons for doing what they did.
Angus had a very hard upbringing which has obviously left him with some deep psychological wounds, his abuse was more feral and was tied in with his strong survival instincts.
With Nick, it was all about his reputation. The reason he did what he did was to maintain the illusion that he was still the same swashbuckling pirate captain he'd always been and, aside from his issues about being defeated by women, not much else.
I think SRD was implying that Nick's actions were made all the worse because of his motives, perhaps in the same way that a murder comitted by someone who is mentally ill is not as heinous a crime as if that person had been sane.

The Dragon wins my award 4 most demented! But that's another topic...Guest's assesment is pretty much spot on..but as MsMary points out: Nick was NO saint!

Angus and Nick

both beat Morn up
both rape Morn
both sell people to the Amnion

Now, in the time that we see them, we learn more about Angus's crimes than Nick's...especially the events of The Real Story and Angus's selling people to the Amnion to learn how to edit data cores...but that doesn't mean Nick didn't do equally bad things in the past that we are not aware of. Was it Vector who said something like

We've done worse.

????

I do not like either of these characters at all. I was glad when Nick was shot down like a rat...but I have to give Angus credit for regretting the bad things he has done, especially to Morn

When I hurt you, I hurt myself.

and in trying to do better. Nick never seems to have any regrets for the bad things he does, and never makes any effort to do better...

However, the things Angus had done before he got his zone implants are so foul I am truly sickened by them...

Angus was worse because he did worse things. But at least he tried to 'atone' or he felt guilt. Wasn't it in the 2nd chronicles where TC said the only powerful people are those who have guilt? I wonder if that applies to the Gap.

Nick was consumed by his hate. Morn had finally defeated NIck completley when she helped Angus edit his datacore. Donaldson probebly killed Nick becasue he couldn't advance the character anymore. Nick had become nothing more than a victim.

I thought it was fantastic how Nick died. Here's a guy who was willing to sell anything to anybody (even probably including the entire human race to the Amnion), who had this incredible reputation, who's just ON FIRE for the first 3 books, can't lose... and he ends up getting plugged by the same woman who cut him!

Not only that, but you expect he's going to go out in a blaze of glory, just like "good ol' Nick," but Sorus basically just kills him and then turns back to the real trouble at hand. He's basically an afterthought to Sorus.

Masterfully done by Donaldson.

First Mark Korik wrote:Not only that, but you expect he's going to go out in a blaze of glory, just like "good ol' Nick," but Sorus basically just kills him and then turns back to the real trouble at hand. He's basically an afterthought to Sorus.

Masterfully done by Donaldson.

I agree, with one addition. Sorus was just finishing the job. She killed Nick years before. She completely took his life away from him, leving the Nick we all know and love. Of course, he gave her this power. He could have at any time chosen to forget revenge, but instead, he let himself be consumed by it. What a moron.

I think Nick forcing Morn out of her shipsuit and taking her on the bridge in front of the entire bridge crew (Forbidden Knowledge, just before arriving at Enablement Station to force grow Davies) would qualify as rape.

Hmmm. Rape is sex without consent. Considering Morn would have suffered alot if she didn't have sex with Nick then and there, perhaps she had no other choice. Yes, you are right; it may have been rape.

Nick was too victimized? Nawh. Remember that he has a history that goes before the first book. I believe it is mentioned somewhere in the books that Nick and many of his crew were guilty of murder in the course of their piracy. In fact I think Nick had killed members of his own crew in the past.

On Thanatos Minor, he was ready to sacrifice everyone on his ship gladly for a chance to kill Sorus. He was sad at the outcome only because his ship crashed. He was almost completely morally bankrupt even by that point. And he gave Morn to the Amnion!!!

And anyway, his death was not a punishment, it was a mercy! He got his chance to try to kill Sorus - he could have just run away but he died on his own terms. The deaths and lives of Sib, Nick and Sorus were tragic. However they all made a positive difference and/or received small measures of vengeance. What was a punishment for Nick was being tied up and gagged for awhile before they let him go. I enjoyed that.

And Angus, who deserved to be punished worse, got punished worse than Nick by being welded into the crib by Hashi. Nobody deserves something that harsh.

But every character receives some dignity.

There are still enough bad guys left after killing off Nick and Sorus. No problem. And enough heros. The ending/climax of Book 4 is the second best; of course Book 5 is the best.

YEah it is rumoured he did worse. I recall Vector saying that they have all done some bad things.

First of all, I am confused as hell by the dates on this thread; apparently loremaster is speaking to us from two years past.

Personally, I can’t think of a more painful and satisfying way for Nick to have died. Angus was vile, but at least he was honest with himself. This eventually enabled him to save himself, repair the damage from his past.

Nick's death was very important. We had to see the result of Nick’s blind lust for Vengeance. The Nick Succorso who never loses was long dead. His decline was almost final at this point. I will admit I at least thought he would take Sorus out, but I wasn't surprised at his death.

I will also admit though that I was paranoid that at some point in This Day All Gods Die he would come back from the grave and betray our noble heroes one last time.

Besides, if Nick lasted long enough for Angus to hear "Vasectomy", it would have been over in a nanosecond. (Or maybe quite a bit longer, depending on how much time Angus had to kill)

Old hat I know, but I was disappointed with Nick's demise too. Nick was one of the best-written baddies I've seen. Sure, he was a cocky, prideful, lying scoundrel, but that's what made him a great character.

He is my favourite character.

The Dreaming - that is odd. I wonder why my posts say it is two years ago.