Kevin's Watch

Good thread HLT!

I think that any battle between Good and Evil is going to have some religious over/undertones and SRD has on many occasions used theological imagery and has named characters with deliberation. Certainly the Merewives are like Sirens and the limitations of the extent of the Land we see in the second Chronicles is reminiscent of the Odyssey and the Greek view of "the World". We have Kraken and the Guardian is a sort of Atlas type figure. We have imagery and character sets, like oracles, personified natural forces, Giants, Titans, intrusions from the Gods, semi ethereal horses, demons and denizens of worlds darker places...................

I looked up Jeremiah and found that he was a prophet whose key role was the fortelling of doom for his land (Judah). He also foreshadowed the coming of a saviour and the restoration and salvation of the land. I also found a quote I thought interesting...........

Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

............... and it may fit someone's theory. For me though I also see the possibility that the key 'power' figures of the creator and despiser may well have another facet. Theological pantheons often have top echelon triumverates such as the Holy Trinity, the brothers Zeus, Hades and Posiedon, the family Horus, Ra and Isis and Odin, Thor and Loki. One might suppose that the Despiser and the Creator might have another manifestation. Jeremiah could fit the Prophet or Messiah role as a pressager of doom and/or salvation and even be an amalgam of both. But I see his real potential as a being in the ilk of the Creator and Despiser whereas, Joan, Roger, Linden and even TC are more limited in scope like angels or demi-gods or perhaps acolytes of some form.

I am not saying that one things copies or follows another here, but that the pantheon of the Land does have some influences from other lands and other pantheons and that it might be that some of the terms of reference or heirachies for one may be reflected in another.

I also see the possibility of Jeremiah being the Land, his wounding and turmoil and warping happenend IIRC at about the same time that the land was subject to the Sunbane. I also think his withdrawal may be due to him concealing his purpose, which must surely be connected to another Kevin-like enactment. Perhaps his healing is the healing of the Land.

Borillar wrote:I don't know about that, but I have wondered what became of that girl. I wondered in particular if she had gotten leprosy from Covenant's attempts to suck the poison from her leg (since I think his lip was bleeding at the time).

Ha!
I thought the same thing when reading the beginning of The Wounded Land, if we'd get some followup info.
Oh well, making him a hero was more than enough for a no name character I guess.

A bullfrog?

I have trouble with the whole Jeremiah sub-plot. It's hard to understand why Linden adopted him, fell in love with him. She doesn't seem to be a person who is overflowing with empathy and compassion in a lot of other aspects of her life. In fact, she seems to be kind of nuts, but I don't know if that is Donaldson's intent, or if the way she is acting is supposed to be the understandable response of a parent and I'm kind of nuts instead .

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Borillar wrote:I don't know about that, but I have wondered what became of that girl. I wondered in particular if she had gotten leprosy from Covenant's attempts to suck the poison from her leg (since I think his lip was bleeding at the time).

Ha!
I thought the same thing when reading the beginning of The Wounded Land, if we'd get some followup info.
Oh well, making him a hero was more than enough for a no name character I guess.

The little girl bit by the rattler was named Karen.

**stretch**

***yawn***

Coffee aromas ... bacon ... hmmm ... bacon ...

****ringing alarm****

Well. Good morning. Don't look at me like that!

How's everyone been these many months?

I guess a good re-reading of Runes and Revenant would serve one well.

burgs wrote:**stretch**

***yawn***

Coffee aromas ... bacon ... hmmm ... bacon ...

****ringing alarm****

Well. Good morning. Don't look at me like that!

How's everyone been these many months?

I guess a good re-reading of Runes and Revenant would serve one well.

Welcome back.

Hiya Burgs, I knew you would be back in time for AATE.

Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Hmm, well... This is what I see:

Jeremiah is 15 (1:5)

Somewhere along the way Linden is told that Lord Foul has put his mark on him (appointed him)

That none has ever been seen carrying a croyel unwillingly (Foul has formed him).

However. I do not believe that Jeremiah is evil per se. I think that by saving his arm, and even by making him a halfhand, Linden unknowingly kept Foul able to reach Jeremiah. None of his siblings or their mother shows signs of still being connected to the Land - but they also all had their arms amputated.

Jeremiah was not autistic before the fire in wich he burned his arm. Only after. He had forgotten everything even how to walk and stand. But...
After a while he could do more, but not commincate. In fact he remindes me of TC when the Elohim takes away his mind. He can hear and understand everything that happens, but not react to it in any way... Maeby the Elohim did something simular to him, but because of his ability to build what he can and the power he naturally posseses he can fight the effect that way...

Any takers on this?

Jody wrote:

Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Hmm, well... This is what I see:

Jeremiah is 15 (1:5)

Somewhere along the way Linden is told that Lord Foul has put his mark on him (appointed him)

That none has ever been seen carrying a croyel unwillingly (Foul has formed him).

However. I do not believe that Jeremiah is evil per se. I think that by saving his arm, and even by making him a halfhand, Linden unknowingly kept Foul able to reach Jeremiah. None of his siblings or their mother shows signs of still being connected to the Land - but they also all had their arms amputated.

Jeremiah was not autistic before the fire in wich he burned his arm. Only after. He had forgotten everything even how to walk and stand. But...
After a while he could do more, but not commincate. In fact he remindes me of TC when the Elohim takes away his mind. He can hear and understand everything that happens, but not react to it in any way... Maeby the Elohim did something simular to him, but because of his ability to build what he can and the power he naturally posseses he can fight the effect that way...

Any takers on this?

Interesting line of thought..
But I don't see how his becoming a halfhand can in any way stop Jeremiah being reached by Fangthane.
And I like the idea that the Elohim did to him what they did to TC (taking away his mind / responsiveness) as apparently he has the power to be very dangerous to the Elohim..
But I'm not sure if TC was even able to move on his own, much less create castles out of legos or complicated doorways / arches.. So I don't think that it can be the same thing.

Some interesting thoughts there.
I think LF maintained contact with Jeremiah because he was close to the White Gold.
Of course J's ability is part of it as well.
Which was the first reason....well, I don't know.
But IF the story of J's bodiless travels in the Land is true, I think it's likely that LF caused the autism so J could do that, learn about his ability...and LF used that freedom in the Land to entice J, lure him.

Well here's my wacky thought....

Jeremiah's father is Lord Foul through Foul-wife Elena from way back when. Born & held in stasis and planted as bait somehow back in the real world for Linden to take.

Jeremiah is Covenant's grandson. It sure would suck to have Foul as a family member, LOL! Off the wall thought, but horrible to think about anyway.

Vraith wrote:Some interesting thoughts there.
I think LF maintained contact with Jeremiah because he was close to the White Gold.
Of course J's ability is part of it as well.
Which was the first reason....well, I don't know.
But IF the story of J's bodiless travels in the Land is true, I think it's likely that LF caused the autism so J could do that, learn about his ability...and LF used that freedom in the Land to entice J, lure him.

White gold is just a piece of metal without someone to wield it. Foul maintained ties with Jeremiah because Linden adopted him. Even in the "real" world, every move Linden makes plays right into LF's hands.

Jeremiah remains a wild card. Some have claimed that the croyel was speaking for him. Yet we know that Kasreyn did not require that help. But Kasreyn was not reticent like Jeremiah.

So which being is doing the acting and talking, Jeremiah or the croyel?

I'd always assumed that we're seeing the real deal, but when their glamours were Commanded away we can see that Jeremiah has the same condition in the Land. So the croyel has been manipulating Jeremiah's body like a puppet on strings, and we can't say for sure if anything the croyel says through him is the truth.

The thought just occurred to me that perhaps the croyel is the cause of Jeremiah's seemingly autistic condition.

Autism is a condition one is born with, but that is not the case with Jeremiah. The thought just occurred to me that the source of his reticence must be something else: the croyel.

I guess it may be just days before we are proved right or wrong on some things, but I am curious as to the part that Hybrids play in this Chronicle. We have curious cross breeds, characters with crossed purposes and crossed loyalties; we are back to paradoxes.

Esmer is the obvious example, but the Mahdoubt's eyes and Kastenessen's Human-Elohim offspring and the Ur-Viles/Waynhym ancestry as well as the Croyel/Host relationship all seem to be an amalgam of sorts and a part of the story.

It's not inconceivable that Foul could be the sire of Jeremiah in some way, SRD uses a great deal of religious imagery and the quote above (Before I formed you in the womb....) as well as the immaculate conception and many stories in other religions and pantheons might prove further examples of this.

As for the mother? I'd go for the Mahdoubt as mother..... no reason but an interesting twist if it were, or possibly even Linden in some time twist.......