Kevin's Watch

Yes, the construct was reduced to ashes. When Jeremiah placed his racecar in the construct, it erupted in a blaze of light, and was turned to ash. I don't see how any Elohim would be trapped in a pile of ash.

earthbrah wrote:Yes, the construct was reduced to ashes. When Jeremiah placed his racecar in the construct, it erupted in a blaze of light, and was turned to ash. I don't see how any Elohim would be trapped in a pile of ash.

I know - that is why I sort of contradicted myself! Though the fact that the construct is made out of those Quwellisk(spelling?) bones can't simply be coincidence?

Did anyone else find the final use of the racecar a bit weird? Maybe the construct needed something from his past as a personal link to open his mind, I guess?

Barnetto wrote:

Maybe the construct needed something from his past as a personal link to open his mind, I guess?

Perhaps. Or maybe it needed something from the "real world" to free his mind.

earthbrah wrote:Barnetto wrote:

Maybe the construct needed something from his past as a personal link to open his mind, I guess?

Perhaps. Or maybe it needed something from the "real world" to free his mind.

After thinking about this I came to the conclusion that the racecar was needed because it symbolized normality. When he was in the 'real' world the racecar lay waiting for him to become an ordinary boy capable of taking interest in such ordinary toys.

It was the embodiment Linden used for what hoped to achieve with/for him. That's what 'Birthright' meant: the normal life he was denied by the fire-ritual.

The bone-construct was the magical tool but the racecar was what gave it it's purpose.

Speaking of the car, why did Esmer decide to/have to fix it (if I'm remembering correctly)? How does that figure in to all this?

Good question.

It no doubt has something to do with the whole aid and betrayal thing. Clearly he aided Jeremiah by making the car whole again. The Elohim are deathly afraid of Jeremiah's ability. So it would stand to reason that the Elohim will receive the betrayal this time...

Then again, I could be totally wrong.

No, that's my take on it too.
The car had to be whole for Jerry to be as well, i think.

Agreed. The car had to be whole to work in the construct. Though heaven knows why! And I don't expect the Last Chronicles to elucidate on that - it's a piece of the puzzle that is now in place, done and dusted.

earthbrah wrote:Good question.

It no doubt has something to do with the whole aid and betrayal thing. Clearly he aided Jeremiah by making the car whole again. The Elohim are deathly afraid of Jeremiah's ability. So it would stand to reason that the Elohim will receive the betrayal this time...

Then again, I could be totally wrong.

I'd say you're definitely on the right track with the aid/betrayal. What you said, but in addition connects with LF: both sides in the fight need Jerry whole, you can't walk the aid/betrayal line more precisely than helping free his mind.

And, from up-thread, agree with two different points: needed the car both to connect with "real," physically, and emotionally too...a sign of caring, and we all know how much emotion attaches to power in these books. Also, the car might have come first: seeing the car could have been the motivator/inspiration..."hey, with that I could build THIS!"...sorta like some sculptors say the stone, or wood, or whatever tells them what the work can be...the shape is already in it.

The problem with the car, and what sort of frustrates me about SRD, is that there is no indication that Linden knows that this will help, and it becomes absolutely vital to the story. He writes all these contortions into his overly long story, and then as we try to make sense of the twists and turns, Linden is free for a split second and instead of using the instruments of power, one of which we are lead to believe is potent against a being about to kill or do worse to her son (who by the way is the point of the whole story), Linden simply with no forethought whips a car out of her pocket and tosses it to her *son* - changing forever the future of the entire planet!
Know what I mean?
- Stephen

Raman Bannor wrote:The problem with the car, and what sort of frustrates me about SRD, is that there is no indication that Linden knows that this will help, and it becomes absolutely vital to the story. He writes all these contortions into his overly long story, and then as we try to make sense of the twists and turns, Linden is free for a split second and instead of using the instruments of power, one of which we are lead to believe is potent against a being about to kill or do worse to her son (who by the way is the point of the whole story), Linden simply with no forethought whips a car out of her pocket and tosses it to her *son* - changing forever the future of the entire planet!
Know what I mean?
- Stephen

I don't agree...this is all foreshadowed. There are even posts in various places where several people predicted this kind of use for the car a long time ago.

Vraith-- that's because we know this is a fantasy book, where objects aren't mentioned unless important and everything is all symbolic and them-y. I think Raman/Stephen's objection is that while we know the car will be important, there is no way for Linden to know this, because she does not know that she is in a Fantasy book.

Raman is, of course, wrong: Linden does know she's living in a fantasy novel, and has since the end of the One Tree.

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:Vraith-- that's because we know this is a fantasy book, where objects aren't mentioned unless important and everything is all symbolic and them-y. I think Raman/Stephen's objection is that while we know the car will be important, there is no way for Linden to know this, because she does not know that she is in a Fantasy book.

Raman is, of course, wrong: Linden does know she's living in a fantasy novel, and has since the end of the One Tree.

Literally? No. I'm guessing you meant that figuratively. She knows she is living in a fantasy realm. Her utter lack of Unbelief is amazing and lacks credibility upon reflection. But Donaldson somehow makes it work. So we have to start off assuming that Linden knows how fantasy realms work, and that she knows that fantasy race-cars from the "real" world must serve a purpose even though she never gave it one instant of thought that we know of. She apparently has an instinct for living in fantasy realms, perhaps after a great deal of D&D experience as a teenager.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:Vraith-- that's because we know this is a fantasy book, where objects aren't mentioned unless important and everything is all symbolic and them-y. I think Raman/Stephen's objection is that while we know the car will be important, there is no way for Linden to know this, because she does not know that she is in a Fantasy book.

Raman is, of course, wrong: Linden does know she's living in a fantasy novel, and has since the end of the One Tree.

Literally? No. I'm guessing you meant that figuratively. She knows she is living in a fantasy realm. Her utter lack of Unbelief is amazing and lacks credibility upon reflection. But Donaldson somehow makes it work. So we have to start off assuming that Linden knows how fantasy realms work, and that she knows that fantasy race-cars from the "real" world must serve a purpose even though she never gave it one instant of thought that we know of. She apparently has an instinct for living in fantasy realms, perhaps after a great deal of D&D experience as a teenager.

BAh...it's much simpler than that [and stays inside the novel to boot]...skipping a lot of other junk, Linden does know [or at least ASSUMES] from the beginning that it matters somehow. He brings it, she knows it, they share it, he builds things, including things related to cars, [and does nothing else she knows of], she knows it means something to JERRY, not to the Croyel...cuz Jerry brought it, Croyel threw it away. Esmer fixes it. WTF else could he have wanted from her? WTH else could she have put in his hand?
Not to mention everyone who deals with kids [even autistic ones] knows, even if you're just going away for the weekend, they bring what matters [which is never a toothbrush, for some reason...sheesh]

AND, given her experiences so far, why the hell would Linden think she's suddenly capable of instantaneously blowing the crap out of the Queen of the Elohim? Especially when said being is about 2 feet from her son?

Vraith wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:Vraith-- that's because we know this is a fantasy book, where objects aren't mentioned unless important and everything is all symbolic and them-y. I think Raman/Stephen's objection is that while we know the car will be important, there is no way for Linden to know this, because she does not know that she is in a Fantasy book.

Raman is, of course, wrong: Linden does know she's living in a fantasy novel, and has since the end of the One Tree.

Literally? No. I'm guessing you meant that figuratively. She knows she is living in a fantasy realm. Her utter lack of Unbelief is amazing and lacks credibility upon reflection. But Donaldson somehow makes it work. So we have to start off assuming that Linden knows how fantasy realms work, and that she knows that fantasy race-cars from the "real" world must serve a purpose even though she never gave it one instant of thought that we know of. She apparently has an instinct for living in fantasy realms, perhaps after a great deal of D&D experience as a teenager.

BAh...it's much simpler than that [and stays inside the novel to boot]...skipping a lot of other junk, Linden does know [or at least ASSUMES] from the beginning that it matters somehow. He brings it, she knows it, they share it, he builds things, including things related to cars, [and does nothing else she knows of], she knows it means something to JERRY, not to the Croyel...cuz Jerry brought it, Croyel threw it away. Esmer fixes it. WTF else could he have wanted from her? WTH else could she have put in his hand?
Not to mention everyone who deals with kids [even autistic ones] knows, even if you're just going away for the weekend, they bring what matters [which is never a toothbrush, for some reason...sheesh]

AND, given her experiences so far, why the hell would Linden think she's suddenly capable of instantaneously blowing the crap out of the Queen of the Elohim? Especially when said being is about 2 feet from her son?

If it's simpler, then why did it take you longer to explain it? All I'm saying is that, despite all the readers' access to her private thoughts, she gave us no clue that she even thought about the race-car. Exactly the same thing happened in FR, Linden came up with THE question that blew Roger's glamour out of the water despite there being no precedent for her asking it.

The point is that she knows from day one, because covenant told her, that they are the "main characters" of the land, and that the world revolves around them and their inner conflicts.

Ergo, anything of sentimental importance to her--like Jeremiah's car--will turn out to have magical powers.

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:The point is that she knows from day one, because covenant told her, that they are the "main characters" of the land, and that the world revolves around them and their inner conflicts.

Ergo, anything of sentimental importance to her--like Jeremiah's car--will turn out to have magical powers.

Actually, Covenant told her it was a dream. Or are you thinking about something from WGW?

Heh...as you well know, Worm, it took longer to explain because I was pulling things from the text to support what I said. The short version is: Of course Linden knows the car is important, so Linden acts that way through the only thing she has that connects to him.
And I don't think you are correct about Roger/FR question either. She knew, and we knew that she knew, that something was wrong with Jerry/Fake TC. She simply had no idea what was wrong, so asked the question that would solve it: to be shown the truth. That was, in that situation, the ONLY question that would serve her particular need.

Honestly, in the case of Linden/car/Jerry/structure/Stave/Infelice at that precise moment, with all the character/emotive backstory that has happened, ANY action Linden took other than the one she did would have been more baseless/illogical/convoluted/unexplainable than the one she did.

And [Fuzzy] the car itself didn't have any magical powers. Just a necessary shape/composition. That's why Croyel crushed it and Esmer fixed it. And Jerry brought it. Jerry has the powers. It was HIS plans/necessities that made it available [oh, and LF's.] And TC didn't tell Linden what you say: what he told her, with more than one variation, is ways she could look at it that might help her stay sane/survive. This happens all the time in RL too...therapists tell depressed people [among other strategies] too look "outside," change their viewpoint. This does not necessarily "cure" them of depression. It just gives them a position to live from, rather than shooting themselves in the head.

Worm-- The important point is not just that the Land is a dream, it's that it's HER dream. Therefore its properties are informed by her psychology.

Vraith--I submit that the car has no power in the same sense that the ring has no power--a rather arcane sense.

Fuzzy_Logic wrote:Worm-- The important point is not just that the Land is a dream, it's that it's HER dream. Therefore its properties are informed by her psychology.

The "outside" answer is that it's a shared dream, informed by the unconscious processes - e.g., the "inner Despisers" - of all the dreamers: Roger, Linden, Joan, Thomas, Jeremiah, the old beggar:

"There are two completely different explanations," he said as evenly as he could. "Outside and inside. The outside explanation might be easier to accept. It goes like this." He took a deep breath. "You and I are still lying in that triangle." A grimace strained his bruises. "We're unconscious. And while we're unconscious, we're dreaming. We're sharing a dream."
Her mien was tight with disbelief. He hastened to add, "It's not as farfetched as you think. Deep down in their minds - down where dreams come from - most people have a lot in common. That's why so many of our dreams fall into patterns that other people can recognize.
"It's happening to us." [...] "We're sharing a dream. And we're not the only ones," he went on, denying her a chance to put her incredulity into words. "Joan had fragments of the same dream. And that old man - the one you saved. We're all tied into the same unconscious process."

The "inside" explanation is that the Land is real.