Kevin's Watch

Orlion wrote:]

MGF wrote:An author describes a heroin flash vividly. Presumably, you have never experienced one yourself. Would you not like to know whether he is talking about the real thing from personal experience - or simply making it up?

The question doesn't strike me as massively academic.

Best,

Martin

Once again, this reflects more on the reader. If you read about the heroin flash and say, "Wow, that's totally true!" It only means that you have experienced a heroin flash. An author can draw on more than just personal experience and be successful in accurately describing something. For example, Isaac Asimov never went to space, but it has been said that he described the feelings of a space walk to a "T".

You have half a point and treat it as a complete one. The truth is in between. Author and reader meet in the book. Both have a life outside it, and not only the reader's outside life is relevant. To remain on the drugs theme, take Burroughs. Now imagine that he never took a drug in his life - only researched the topic, made bits up, etcetera. What a strange writer he would be, if he were obsessing about drugs for no plain biographical reason! See what I mean?

Best,

Martin

MGF wrote:See what I mean?

I do. The problem, I think, is that Donalsdon's books have two parallel channels if you will. The first channel is plot driven fantasy, which belongs to the inner fantasy life. The second is the exploration of deep pychological damage and how a person reacts to it, which relates far more to the real world, and is more likely to raise questions about the author.

I would suggest that the second channel is coming in much louder this time around. Or is it just that I'm becoming deaf in one ear?

Whoa...hold on here. Native..you dropped the word " surreally" but I'm having doubt that you fully understand it. I say that...because....Surrealism..is the answer to your Issues about the author's treatment of the male characters and the female characters..What you " metaphorically" suggest as the author's reflection of his personal affairs..or the possibility of...is actually a property of Surrealism. So..you used the words..but missed the target. But thats okay..cuz..I'm here posting about it and the " feminine" properties of Surrealism needs to be understood.

First..Are the chronicles an expression done in the Surreal style? IMHO, yes. The " interior landscape" ..the idea of,," the metaphor IS the message"..even the " off balance" you allude to..and of course, the "Mystery"..and Unexpected..are all long used techniques and motifs of The Surreal. If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck..then its probably a duck. But..imho..AATE definitely takes the " probably" out of it and makes it a Hard Definite.

Second..The " feminine"...Hang on..this mite take a bit..The original Surrealists..formed their " movement" out of the utter disgust and contempt they had for the " Leaders" of the world and the Humanity that followed the so called " Leaders,,as they marched into the Worlds first World War. These Surrealist all experienced the First World War first hand. They came together in their belief that such an atrocity inflicted on Mankind must not happen again. After much thought they went on to say that... WW1 was just a next step in Mankinds thousands of year olde habit of going to WAR every 30 to 50 years. Their conclusion was...the Very Way That Mankind Thought and Perceived was at the root of Mankind going to War every generation or so. The polarized..right/wrong..yes/no..left/right...black/white..etc etc thinking and perceiving actually could only produce nothing BUT a war every 30 to 50 years. It was ab inevitable product. Therefore...LOGIC...a linear system of thinking based in polarized " true/false" statements.. they hated and blamed man's inevitable call to arms on.

Their alternate to LOGIC..was the Intuitive..the Parabolic..the Imagination...Love....Rather than have Man Conflicted by his dependence and use of LOGIC..true/false right?...any one man would be at peace with himself by being in touch with his Intuition, Imagination..Love..and one man at peace with himself,,is the start of Mankind being at peace with itself. Intuition,,the Parabolic( non Linear)..the Imagination..Love..had then, and perhaps even to today..been considered.." feminine" and LOGIC..one step above neanderthal...caveman.

Therefore..your " review" is off target by suggesting The Last Chrons may be a reflection of the authors personal views on his own experience with family and wives...when as evidenced in Particular ever easier manifestation in AATE..he is actually playing with the known structures of Surrealism. The underling HOPE of Surrealism..on a personal level and on the level of All of Mankind...appears to be the Author's Grand View.

When the God Father of Surrealism,,Andre Breton, was asked about the " feminine" of Surrealism..he replied..." So What!!...it beats going to War and slaughtering each other every 50 years for the last few thousand years..How timely is the Surreal message today..when Mankind can simply End the Long Line of Wars..the Logic of Despair...by letting fly a..or a few..atomic bombs? True..no more Wars after that begins,, cuz no body is going to be around. The Worm at the Worlds End has begun to eat the stars.

Wow...I decline to post my response to Native, because, Lurch...I don't know about the applicability of surrealism yet, but on my read-through pre-last dark, I'm gonna keep it in mind. All the critical eyes I've used, that one never even occurred to me. Food for several thoughts.

Where did the thank button go?

imho...the below post is better..I apologize for changing what I posted while my s l o w computer got hung up...MEL

Vraith wrote:Wow...I decline to post my response to Native, because, Lurch...I don't know about the applicability of surrealism yet, but on my read-through pre-last dark, I'm gonna keep it in mind. All the critical eyes I've used, that one never even occurred to me. Food for several thoughts.

Where did the thank button go?

Vraith..in any case , you are welcomed. If interested ...the author brings closer to the surface several aspects of Surrealism in AATE. The Lost Deep....the whole "Water" deal..It was Breton who said..Man Is Soluble...that is, a person tends to " dissolve" into the environment he finds himself. Hence the Fish jokes about Surrealists..Man, while easily manipulated by his environment , still..Man Can Change is the point..Also..the translated Waynhim..thats pretty close to right out of Breton's mouth. its absolutely..magnificent..in that the Giant can't find English words for some of the Waynhim concepts..Exactly Right!!!!..BEAUTY!! Surrealism is all about rising above the Mundane. Of course...Linden's and TC's " Time Tripping" episodes in AATE..speak to the subjectivity of Time..Dali's melting clocks anybody...but more importantly..to the connections between the current situation and those memories..the " intuitive grasp" of how those memories relate and influence decisions made in the current. TC's " time trip" ushered by the Raver..really gets to that " relationship" and how even our memories can lead us astray. I will go even further to say..that if as some have already mentioned..that the Plot seems abit contrived..deux ex machina in certain regards,,( the outrageous " saves" of the main characters for example) that aspect Will get even More Outrageous!!!..Why? ..Because..For PLOT to be PLOT..it has to follow linear logical progression..SURREALISM HATES LOGIC!!
One builds bridges..Skyscrapers,,goes to the MOON with LOGIC..BUT..One Does NOT Build HUMAN BEINGS with LOGIC..One Builds Robots With Logic. I,,and I believe Donaldson..are NOT ROBOTS...nor do I believe that SRD Writes for Robots..So..if anything..expect to see More of the Wild ,,seemingly disassociated " scenes" that surfaced in the last few chapters of AATE..imho.


..Our Humanity..What it is to be a Human Being..what a Human Being is capable of..expanding the Parameters of What it Is to BE a Human Being.. is at the center of Surrealism and at the center of Donaldson's " Chronicles" imho.

lurch wrote:Whoa...hold on here. Native..you dropped the word " surreally" but I'm having doubt that you fully understand it.

You're right about that. Great post, and food for much thought.

edit: So are you suggesting Jeremiah is MC Escher?

www.gravestmor.com/wp/archives/2005/12/12/lego-escher/

native wrote: I would suggest that the second channel is coming in much louder this time around. Or is it just that I'm becoming deaf in one ear?

Okay, let's break it down a bit.

Until this book, we might have believed that Joan's main reason for leaving Covenant was to protect her young son from his leprosy. Now (to put it very flippantly) we and Covenant discover her real thoughts and have no alternative but to view her as a very superficial, selfish and inexcusably spiteful piece of work. Emotionally, it would be easy to view her death as an arguably deserved murder. And though Covenant's ostensible motive is a different one, it's true that he emerges from the violence with little sign of regret.

Now, that is not the Covenant of the first six books. He has changed - which can be explained within the plot, if one really must (yeah, he's been an immortal institution for 3000 years, as we are constantly reminded). But I don't find such an intrinsic explanation very satisfactory in this particular regard... it's not really fleshed out as a specific part of the reincarnation theme. Rather, we gain the impression that the narrator is not very aware of this detail of the changes in reborn Covenant. Which does rather beg the question of where it comes from. Perhaps from outside the story?

Best,

Martin

The way I see it, we can't really judge Covenant's character based on prior books. He's been "living" per se for centuries, has seen untold amounts of events, and has mind fissure issues.

On that note though, he's a stubborn bastard and holds onto his (un)beliefs. When he first goes for the krill, Linden calls him out on his promise to no longer wield weapons for destructive purposes. And later on, Mahtiir calls him out on his promise to never ride a Ranyhyn again. Both he acknowledges and to both he admits to hopes that answers will reveal themselves.

This is a different Covenant, one of action. Why? Well Linden bloody sacrificed all of existence for his life. What sort of pressure does that put on a man? He's trying to balance his promises with the need to be useful.

I admit little regret and pain was written in, but Covenant knew Joan's only mercy was death and her threat was his burden. Plus a lot of **** was going on at the time so it's possible he won't come to terms with it until the beginning of the next book when he has a chance to reflect.

However, I'd like to point out that I agree that some of the character writing felt... off. As if their reactions, or lack there of, were out of place. I can't remember them all but I remember one being Linden and finally getting Jeremiah. Particularly when the croyel dies. I would have expected to be exuberant and hug the hell out of him--followed by a page or two of how she felt. We've been waiting for this moment since chapter 1 of the first damn book. Hardly anything. Just felt strange. *shrug*

native wrote:
So if you're looking for laughs, look somewhere else. Not one person in this book has the remotest grain of a smile on their faces.

Some "smile" quotes from AATE:

With a warm smile for Pahni, he wrapped his arms around Linden.

Around her, the Giants opened their arms to her blackness and smiled.

Just for an instant, the lines of his mouth hinted at a smile. [Pretty good for a Haruchai.]

His strained smile may have been meant as reassurance.

Not even the perennial forced jollity of the giants can raise a laugh this time round.

"Laughter" quotes (that did not come from jovial Giants):

Laughing again, he sent out streamers of chartreuse and fuligin on all sides, bands interwoven with crimson and cerulean.

To a chorus of laughter and a few whistles, as if he had delivered a particularly telling riposte, he sat down near one of the cloth trays.

Esmer laughed at it softly, without scorn, as if he had passed beyond the reach of any sustenance.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

native wrote:
So if you're looking for laughs, look somewhere else. Not one person in this book has the remotest grain of a smile on their faces.

Some "smile" quotes from AATE:

Oh all right I was exaggerating a bit

native wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

native wrote:
So if you're looking for laughs, look somewhere else. Not one person in this book has the remotest grain of a smile on their faces.

Some "smile" quotes from AATE:

Oh all right I was exaggerating a bit

Oh well, you weren't too far off. Most of the "smile" quotes I found have to do with trying to smile, attempting to smile, or forcing a smile that comes out as a grimace. Those kind far outweigh the few that I cited.

Edit - Also, most of the "laughter" quotes I found had to do with sinister kinds of laughter, or Giantish laughter. So the most you could say is that the smiles and the sincere laughs were few and far in between.

A haruchai's smile and tears bear some weight I imagine.

I for one didn't see the Stave/Galt thing coming. Gives me more reason to re-read.

Krilly wrote:A haruchai's smile and tears bear some weight I imagine.

I for one didn't see the Stave/Galt thing coming. Gives me more reason to re-read.

It's the end of days, anything is possible!

But Stave is no longer a Master, something happened at Glimmermere to make him more human, and less stoic, than the rest of them.

That is a good observation about Linden's reaction to the croyel's demise. It can be understood that...A) Linden had very little Direct responsibility for it,,and as matter of fact, Liand and Anele died so as to allow for the liberation of Jeremiah..True..in both cases, it was Their Choice..Liand kept the orcrest ,,and Anele was on full voluntary with wishes to be reunited with his parents. So..the " doctor" in Linden was feckless. B) Jeremiah was still in his autistic withdraw.

But...the reader was certainly.." gladdened". I am pointing out something here that I find the author being subtle about. I refer to it in the SRD Fart Joke thread. He is telling subtle jokes at the characters expense. The jokes are for us,,not the characters. There are smiles and laffs but they seem to be aimed for us to have. I agree,,the reader ,,any reader,,was probably more overjoyed by the croyels death than Linden was shown to be. One must remember..that Linden is an anti-hero just like TC was. Its the difference between Lindens reaction and the Readers Expectations that Donaldson is at play with. In other words..TC told Linden to do something unexpected..The author is doing that to the reader. The battles, the gut wrenching remorse,,being taken to limits of ones endurance ,,etc etc etc..are all easy..predictable..Donaldson trade marks. But..in AATE..I got the feeling..that the author has begun to mess with these " trade marks." I mean..even Convenant doesn't even care about the weather or about what hes going to do . TC will just do..when he gets there.Look at how TC deals with the Harrow's horse. And..OMG...TC has made a Deal..with the LURKER!!! Talk about the Unexpected!!

btw...I am made very smiley face...with each and every mention by the author of the word..." lurch".

Krilly wrote:The way I see it, we can't really judge Covenant's character based on prior books. He's been "living" per se for centuries, has seen untold amounts of events, and has mind fissure issues.

That would be a text-immanent way of looking at it, and it works to an extent - but not without bothers. Covenant spends a great deal of time investigating some aspects of his re-found humanity and nearly none looking at the issues his former self would have dwelt on. You could almost say that all his old obsessions have vanished. Yet his capacity for self-reflection is still there, and that is why it's strange that he doesn't apply it where the reader might expect him to. He is not only able to respond to the Joan problem fairly easily. He doesn't even notice that ease.

Sure, having spent 3000 years with it, Covenant is at home in his evolved personality. But the reader is not. And in some respects, the narrator seems strangely unaware of this gulf. He addresses some discrepancies at length, but totally ignores others. My guess is that the narrator and Covenant have evolved together these past 25 years or so. They have both been in an Arch of Time and busy getting on with life. We are not privy to the forces that have changed the two of them, but I certainly get the feeling that some will only be found beyond the book and the reader.

Best,

Martin

I'm not sure I agree that Covenant is "at home in his evolved personality". He observes more than once that he's changing and isn't yet sure what he will become. That's his excuse for telling Linden not to touch him.

aliantha wrote:I'm not sure I agree that Covenant is "at home in his evolved personality". He observes more than once that he's changing and isn't yet sure what he will become. That's his excuse for telling Linden not to touch him.

He's not so happy about his leprosy and memory issues, that's true. But he doesn't seem to pay much attention to the changes I have been talking about.

Best,

Martin

I disagree on both Joan and TC. What she was was engulfed in horror, terror, and guilt. This made her fragile, vulnerable to everything that happened after.
Most of TC's "obsessions" were resolved even before he became the Arch. But not, not all, and not his capacity for commitment and extremity. And when he says he has to stay numb, he doesn't mean only his fingers and toes.
Nevertheless, there's no "ease" in what he does. He was instants from death. And these things from him: "God help me. Be merciful to me for I have sinned."
"...before the Ranyhyn came near enough to take his burden from him."
"He hardly thought at all. Stunned in the aftermath of delivering death..."
"He had never been able to bear his crimes in isolation. Without friends, companions, and love steadfast beyond his worth, he would have failed long ago."
"If he accomplished nothing else that would serve as restitution...

Yeah, but he's very easily able to shift his attention elsewhere.

Best,

Martin