Kevin's Watch

As I've said a few times, I'm not a big fan of Elena. But she certainly was interesting, and important.

sindatur wrote:Jonnyredleader, this is a 1st and 2nd Chronicles Forum. Final Chronicles details should either be left out, or be spoiler marked

Spoilers are preferably left out due to humanity's innately curious nature.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

sindatur wrote:Jonnyredleader, this is a 1st and 2nd Chronicles Forum. Final Chronicles details should either be left out, or be spoiler marked

Spoilers are preferably left out due to humanity's innately curious nature.

Heh, yea, tell me 'bout it. Can't tell you how many times, Curiousity killed something for this cat, 'cause it was just sitting there in a spoiler wrapped bag looking all tantalizing, and I couldn't resist

Though, I have managed to keep myself out of the AATE Forum, since I haven't had a chance to finish the book yet, so, there is at least that restraint.

sindatur wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

sindatur wrote:Jonnyredleader, this is a 1st and 2nd Chronicles Forum. Final Chronicles details should either be left out, or be spoiler marked

Spoilers are preferably left out due to humanity's innately curious nature.

Heh, yea, tell me 'bout it. Can't tell you how many times, Curiousity killed something for this cat, 'cause it was just sitting there in a spoiler wrapped bag looking all tantalizing, and I couldn't resist

Though, I have managed to keep myself out of the AATE Forum, since I haven't had a chance to finish the book yet, so, there is at least that restraint.

Yet it's really quite obvious, even before reading, that this time around

Spoiler

everybody dies.

Thanks for the assist, Sind!

To continue the discussion, I think the main difference between Elena and Linden is that Elena didn't believe in herself. She didn't trust herself to resist Despair which is why she summoned Kevin to fight Despair for her, like Covenant relied on Elena to fight for him. In both cases, the results were catastrophic.

Orlion wrote:Thanks for the assist, Sind!

To continue the discussion, I think the main difference between Elena and Linden is that Elena didn't believe in herself. She didn't trust herself to resist Despair which is why she summoned Kevin to fight Despair for her, like Covenant relied on Elena to fight for him. In both cases, the results were catastrophic.

"Elena didn't believe in herself." Cite?

I'm not sure it was that, Elena and the lords were frustrated at their inability to unlock kevins wards. They already felt inferior and wanted something to strike back with, hence summoning covenant in the first place. Couple this with Elena's hero worship of the old lords and it was an obvious choice for her as she knew her limitations but overestimated kevins

Fist and Faith wrote:As I've said a few times, I'm not a big fan of Elena. But she certainly was interesting, and important.

And hot. You forgot hot.

Definately hot!!SRD makes a big deal in the book about how hot she is and how other influential characters are in love with her. Theres no real mention of lindens physical appeal or that she attracts anyone or has any sexual urges or desires, for an adult fantasy that always struck me as odd given the number of books she appears in and how character and emotional development is important part of SRDs writing. I think that's significant because apart from the infamous sexual assault on Lena there is little to no sexual encounters or discussion used throughout all the books. maybe that's why linden refuses to convince me and elena felt like something real.
Thomas and linden seem to keep a platonic distance even though quite clearly he's in love, with Elena it's overt and declared physically and in how she behaves to him.

jonnyredleader wrote: Thomas and linden seem to keep a platonic distance even though quite clearly he's in love, with Elena it's overt and declared physically and in how she behaves to him.

Covenant and Linden are screwing each other half of the voyage back from the One Tree.

Remember, the Giants start teasing them about it, and Covenant complains about everyone on the ship knowing his business??

I agree but I as a reader I'm not emotionally convinced, maybe that says more about me

Also, one of the first things we learn about Linden is that she "had a figure men might find desirable" (or something like that). Not much is made of this because Linden just doesn't think of herself that way, and Covenant is more interested in her for not being afraid of him.

Linden having 'a figure men might find desirable' is of no consequence in the face of knowing her so intimately that all her desirability is crushed beyond repair. Once her charachter is known her physical atrributes pale into insignificance - exept of course to TC, and lets face it, he hasn't got much choice; she's the only woman from his universe this side of the arch of time.
No, Elena's appeal is much more grounded in her open nature and freedom from guilt. She accepts her love for TC as a thing of beauty - and is prepared to accept his in return without judgement or regret. I don't buy that she had a lack of self-belief - all of her actions tell a different story; one of a self-assured woman who is at peace with who she is and her origins and also where she is going.

I could not have put that better, I find Elena completely disarming, don't get me wrong, I like linden avery shes stable and conscientious and her actions always come good but it's for those reasons she doesn't even hit my radar, Elena burned bright and was just so passionate and open that I created a flaw and a lack of balance, she wasn't insane she just couldn't dial down her feelings and I love her for that

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:Thanks for the assist, Sind!

To continue the discussion, I think the main difference between Elena and Linden is that Elena didn't believe in herself. She didn't trust herself to resist Despair which is why she summoned Kevin to fight Despair for her, like Covenant relied on Elena to fight for him. In both cases, the results were catastrophic.

"Elena didn't believe in herself." Cite?

In the uncut version, Elena confides in Covenant that she "didn't quite feel up to the task of facing the Despiser... also, I'm only coming on to you because I feel Orlion is way out of my league... so, I guess I'll settle for you."

Indeed, that is how it happened

Edit: Upon doing some quick research, it seems that Elena isn't as distrustful of herself as my statement implied. Actually, according to Donaldson, she was damn sure of herself. I still think I'm slightly right (though mostly wrong) in this aspect: Elena did recognize a problem in her facing Foul, but she was confident she found an answer to that in summoning Kevin from beyond. So... kinda like Johnnyredleader said, if I recall.

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Orlion wrote:Thanks for the assist, Sind!

To continue the discussion, I think the main difference between Elena and Linden is that Elena didn't believe in herself. She didn't trust herself to resist Despair which is why she summoned Kevin to fight Despair for her, like Covenant relied on Elena to fight for him. In both cases, the results were catastrophic.

"Elena didn't believe in herself." Cite?

In the uncut version, Elena confides in Covenant that she "didn't quite feel up to the task of facing the Despiser... also, I'm only coming on to you because I feel Orlion is way out of my league... so, I guess I'll settle for you."

Indeed, that is how it happened

Edit: Upon doing some quick research, it seems that Elena isn't as distrustful of herself as my statement implied. Actually, according to Donaldson, she was damn sure of herself. I still think I'm slightly right (though mostly wrong) in this aspect: Elena did recognize a problem in her facing Foul, but she was confident she found an answer to that in summoning Kevin from beyond. So... kinda like Johnnyredleader said, if I recall.

Elena wouldn't have anything to do with you obviously - because you're not related to her.

Elena's statements to Covenant at Earthroot show that she was very single-minded in her approach to dealing with Foul, she found no logic against her position to be unassailable. That sounds like a case of extreme self-confidence as far as this laser beam-like focus of hers was concerned. And why not? The EarthBlood was supposed to be nearly all-powerful. But she was also fully aware of the limits of their power against Foul's army without the EarthBlood or wild magic. That is not a lack of self-confidence, that is realism.

I've decided after all these years to have another read, well actually I downloaded the audiobook to give myself a different experience. Have to say now I'm used to the narraters voice it's really quite good, great to hear some correct pronounciation and inflections in the dialogue. well so far so good Elena sounds very empathic, caring and understanding high lord with a weight of responsibility for the lands defence against impossible odds. They are desperate, they haven't mastered any of the wards, have not unlocked the full potential of the staff of law, discovered foul has the illearth stone and is ready to begin his assault soon. They summon covenant because they know they are already doomed and only he can save them and the land. But part of fouls plan is to force them to summon TC as he told the lords where the staff of law was, the instrument of summoning. He put the lords and Elena in an impossible position, watch the land be corrupted or summon the only person that might save them. When covenant refuses to use the whitegold he forces Elena to take other drastic measures to save the land and it's people, it just doesn't go the way she hoped...

Elena is Britney Spears.

Linden is Lindsay Lohan.

jonnyredleader wrote:Definately hot!!SRD makes a big deal in the book about how hot she is and how other influential characters are in love with her. Theres no real mention of lindens physical appeal or that she attracts anyone or has any sexual urges or desires, for an adult fantasy that always struck me as odd given the number of books she appears in and how character and emotional development is important part of SRDs writing. I think that's significant because apart from the infamous sexual assault on Lena there is little to no sexual encounters or discussion used throughout all the books. maybe that's why linden refuses to convince me and elena felt like something real.
Thomas and linden seem to keep a platonic distance even though quite clearly he's in love, with Elena it's overt and declared physically and in how she behaves to him.

And let's not forget the Lady Alif......

Horrim Carabal wrote:Elena is Britney Spears.

Linden is Lindsay Lohan.

What is this?

I don't even..