A Game of Thrones
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Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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Horrim Carabal
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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I don't watch TV, really, aside from sports and Survivor.Akasri wrote:Gratuitous sex scenes aside...
It's still probably the best show HBO has ever done. The performances from some of the actors are simply brilliant.
If you like the books at all, watch it - it's amazing.
I liked Sopranos, and The Wire. Don't watch any other dramas and no sitcoms at all. I've seen a few episodes of "Big Bang Theory" and...meh.
Doubt I'll be watching Game of Thrones anytime soon. I do like the books but not really interested in the TV show as described. Even if it were exactly like the books I'd proabably pass. The Lord of the Rings movies were basically exactly like the books and I'm "meh" towards all three of them. I don't own any of them on DVD (although I do love Christopher Lee as Saruman..he was also the best part of the new Star Wars movies).
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I'm Murrin
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Finally caught up with last week's episode. Was better than the previous one.
Not sure why they changed Tyrion's plot so that he told Varys he was after an alliance with the Greyjoys. A) It makes no sense, they'd never accept, and B) the original plot said he was sending Tommen to Dorne, IIRC, which meant it wasn't a huge departure from what he was actually doing. He was seeking alliances with the Vale and the Dornish, just not through the exact swaps he mentioned. In the TV version, he just outright lies about one of them.
Notice they're explicitly making Margaery a schemer and not-a-virgin in this adaptation. In the books you don't see enough of her to ever work out if she's innocent or not. Yet another removal of subtlety, but meh.
Not sure why they changed Tyrion's plot so that he told Varys he was after an alliance with the Greyjoys. A) It makes no sense, they'd never accept, and B) the original plot said he was sending Tommen to Dorne, IIRC, which meant it wasn't a huge departure from what he was actually doing. He was seeking alliances with the Vale and the Dornish, just not through the exact swaps he mentioned. In the TV version, he just outright lies about one of them.
Notice they're explicitly making Margaery a schemer and not-a-virgin in this adaptation. In the books you don't see enough of her to ever work out if she's innocent or not. Yet another removal of subtlety, but meh.
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DoctorGamgee
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I don't know, Murrin. Perhaps to keep Greyjoy in our minds, as Dorne is so far removed from the story as of yet..?
The books let you see names many times. The TV tells you who it is in Season 1 episode 5 and expects you to remember their station, rank, house, family, and geographic locations (as well as Gods, history, etc.). A non-reader would be lost.
However, for all of our grumping about it, it is well done and visually stunning. You may wish to reconsider giving it a chance, Horrim. Fans tend to be hide bound and anything not cannon is sin...
The books let you see names many times. The TV tells you who it is in Season 1 episode 5 and expects you to remember their station, rank, house, family, and geographic locations (as well as Gods, history, etc.). A non-reader would be lost.
However, for all of our grumping about it, it is well done and visually stunning. You may wish to reconsider giving it a chance, Horrim. Fans tend to be hide bound and anything not cannon is sin...
Proud father of G-minor and the Bean
Well said Doc.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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I'm Murrin
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The latest episode has some of the largest deviations from the book so far. Some of them are sensible enough - cutting out a chunk of Arya's wandering about to get her to Harrenhal sooner, for example.
Sending Petyr to Renly early on instead of secretly sending him to the Tyrells afterward lets them get a little more out of their actors, but it also does two other things: Firstly, it means they're probably going to be less secretive about the big twist at the end, since we'll probably see Petyr scheming with the Tyrells instead of learning of it after the big finale. Second, it robs a little touch of the story with Jaime and Catelyn, because it is no longer a desperate Cat doing this alone with no promise it will work - instead, it is Petyr and Tyrion's suggestion and promise she is acting on.
Finally, there is Robb. It looks like they've decided to change his relationship significantly - in the books, he is injured in the assault on the Westerlings' castle, and nursed back to health by the timid Jeyne thanks to her mother's schemes. In the series, it looks like he is going to be involved with a pretty headstrong woman, and though it is still possible she might turn out to be a Westerling, it seems unlikely she'd be performing battlefield medicine if she was. If they've changed the character and the reasons for their relationship, this has a big knock-on effect because this is the pivotal act that leads to one of the most important events in the entire series...
That all said, it wasn't a bad episode, and the ending hit the right notes of horror, which might have surprised a few viewers who've gotten accustomed to the more mundane nastiness in the show.
Sending Petyr to Renly early on instead of secretly sending him to the Tyrells afterward lets them get a little more out of their actors, but it also does two other things: Firstly, it means they're probably going to be less secretive about the big twist at the end, since we'll probably see Petyr scheming with the Tyrells instead of learning of it after the big finale. Second, it robs a little touch of the story with Jaime and Catelyn, because it is no longer a desperate Cat doing this alone with no promise it will work - instead, it is Petyr and Tyrion's suggestion and promise she is acting on.
Finally, there is Robb. It looks like they've decided to change his relationship significantly - in the books, he is injured in the assault on the Westerlings' castle, and nursed back to health by the timid Jeyne thanks to her mother's schemes. In the series, it looks like he is going to be involved with a pretty headstrong woman, and though it is still possible she might turn out to be a Westerling, it seems unlikely she'd be performing battlefield medicine if she was. If they've changed the character and the reasons for their relationship, this has a big knock-on effect because this is the pivotal act that leads to one of the most important events in the entire series...
That all said, it wasn't a bad episode, and the ending hit the right notes of horror, which might have surprised a few viewers who've gotten accustomed to the more mundane nastiness in the show.
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Zarathustra
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I'm Murrin
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I'm Murrin
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The show's version of Robb is an idiot and a disgrace to his father.
Let's go over what happened in the book versus the show:
Both:
Robb is promised to a Frey as part of a deal which secures the crossing of the Trident and the support of the Freys. The deal is very important, because if the Twins belonged to the Lannisters, they could block the route back to the North, and also split Robb's forces on either side of the Trident.
Book:
Robb goes west to the Lannisters' lands to fight his war. In the battle to capture the Crag, home to the Westerlings, he is injured. Jeyne Westerling, daughter of the lord, nurses him back to health personally - this is probably arranged by her mother, Sybil Spicer.
In a moment of vulnerability and weakness, and perhaps also under Sybil's coercion, Robb sleeps with Jeyne. Because Jeyne was a virgin and the daughter of a lord, Robb feels compelled to preserve her honour by marrying her. He does it because he believes it is what his father would have done.
TV Series:
Robb takes his army west to fight in the Lannsiter lands. He meets a Volantene woman, born noble but now without house or title. He decides he'd rather marry her than some Frey he's never met for "a bridge". Robb is a moron.
As idiotic as this all is, it's even worse when you consider that the series has dropped all of the Freys that should have joined Robb as part of the deal, and the entire Westerling/Spicer family - all the people close to Robb that are significant to the fallout from his marriage.
Let's go over what happened in the book versus the show:
Both:
Robb is promised to a Frey as part of a deal which secures the crossing of the Trident and the support of the Freys. The deal is very important, because if the Twins belonged to the Lannisters, they could block the route back to the North, and also split Robb's forces on either side of the Trident.
Book:
Robb goes west to the Lannisters' lands to fight his war. In the battle to capture the Crag, home to the Westerlings, he is injured. Jeyne Westerling, daughter of the lord, nurses him back to health personally - this is probably arranged by her mother, Sybil Spicer.
In a moment of vulnerability and weakness, and perhaps also under Sybil's coercion, Robb sleeps with Jeyne. Because Jeyne was a virgin and the daughter of a lord, Robb feels compelled to preserve her honour by marrying her. He does it because he believes it is what his father would have done.
TV Series:
Robb takes his army west to fight in the Lannsiter lands. He meets a Volantene woman, born noble but now without house or title. He decides he'd rather marry her than some Frey he's never met for "a bridge". Robb is a moron.
As idiotic as this all is, it's even worse when you consider that the series has dropped all of the Freys that should have joined Robb as part of the deal, and the entire Westerling/Spicer family - all the people close to Robb that are significant to the fallout from his marriage.
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Horrim Carabal
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Wow, this makes me glad I haven't watched this show. Sounds like they've jettisoned a lot of the key components of the well-structured first book.Murrin wrote: As idiotic as this all is, it's even worse when you consider that the series has dropped all of the Freys that should have joined Robb as part of the deal, and the entire Westerling/Spicer family - all the people close to Robb that are significant to the fallout from his marriage.
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I'm Murrin
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Nah, a lot of it is intact. They're deviating more in the second book. And they've cut lots and lots of minor characters, for understandable reasons - it's just that some of those "minor" characters are actually significant to the politics of the plot.
In this cas,e the deal with the Freys happened as in the books, but they dropped all the stuff about taking squires and so forth. So there aren't any Freys with Robb now, that we've seen. And they've had Robb go to the Crag, but not for battle, and I don't think we've seen Lord Westerling or any of his family yet. Since Jeyne Westerling's been replaced, they're not likely to be made all that important.
In this cas,e the deal with the Freys happened as in the books, but they dropped all the stuff about taking squires and so forth. So there aren't any Freys with Robb now, that we've seen. And they've had Robb go to the Crag, but not for battle, and I don't think we've seen Lord Westerling or any of his family yet. Since Jeyne Westerling's been replaced, they're not likely to be made all that important.
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DoctorGamgee
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That is a curious take on the Book Robb, Murin. I nad never thought that Rob didn't actually Love his queen. I was under the distinct impression that the choice he made was one based on love (which is irrational and makes fools of the lot of us) rather than a 'thought process' nobility where he was saddling himself with someone he didn't love because he 'owed' her that much as a highborn lady.
But sadly, Martin is forced to deviate from the books in certain aspects because otherwise he would be haunted by the ghost of Bobby Ewing. We have to see Rickon and Bran surviving now because in a year from now, when he finally gets to discussing the boys journey (after having them hung burnt to a crisp at Winterfell) there would have been shades of Bobby stepping out of the shower and all that was known to have happened at South Fork/Winterfell to be chicanery.
Even in the 7 kingdoms, one cannot escape the 80s.
But sadly, Martin is forced to deviate from the books in certain aspects because otherwise he would be haunted by the ghost of Bobby Ewing. We have to see Rickon and Bran surviving now because in a year from now, when he finally gets to discussing the boys journey (after having them hung burnt to a crisp at Winterfell) there would have been shades of Bobby stepping out of the shower and all that was known to have happened at South Fork/Winterfell to be chicanery.
Even in the 7 kingdoms, one cannot escape the 80s.
Proud father of G-minor and the Bean
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I'm Murrin
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Oh, I didn't mean to imply any of that. I think they loved each other in a very teenage-first-love way. But he wouldn't have married her if they hadn't slept together.
The show's Robb is older, and entering into a much more mature relationship with a strong woman - and he's doing it deliberately, choosing to disregard his obligations, rather than falling victim to his emotions and being bound by honour to follow through on them.
The point, really, is that Robb from the book had to be maneuvred into a position of vulnerability to make him give in to his emotions, because of how strongly he was influenced by his father's sense of honour and duty. TV Robb is still healthy, in control, and has only just met the woman, and yet he's ready to just break his oath because he doesn't like it.
Ned Stark gave up the woman he loved (Ashara Dayne) to marry Catelyn Tully, because it was his duty to marry her after his brother died. Robb would have done the same, leaving Jeyne and marrying a Frey - except by taking her virginity he knew he would make it difficult for her family to find anyone to marry her, particularly since she was from a minor house.
The complaint I have here is about the fact that the whole marriage arrangement plot is tied into showing just how strongly Robb values his father's example. The show is disregarding a major part of Robb's character.
The show's Robb is older, and entering into a much more mature relationship with a strong woman - and he's doing it deliberately, choosing to disregard his obligations, rather than falling victim to his emotions and being bound by honour to follow through on them.
The point, really, is that Robb from the book had to be maneuvred into a position of vulnerability to make him give in to his emotions, because of how strongly he was influenced by his father's sense of honour and duty. TV Robb is still healthy, in control, and has only just met the woman, and yet he's ready to just break his oath because he doesn't like it.
Ned Stark gave up the woman he loved (Ashara Dayne) to marry Catelyn Tully, because it was his duty to marry her after his brother died. Robb would have done the same, leaving Jeyne and marrying a Frey - except by taking her virginity he knew he would make it difficult for her family to find anyone to marry her, particularly since she was from a minor house.
The complaint I have here is about the fact that the whole marriage arrangement plot is tied into showing just how strongly Robb values his father's example. The show is disregarding a major part of Robb's character.
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Zarathustra
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Not a bad rebuttal, Doc (love "makes fools of the lot of us"), but I think Murrin's point is better. While Robb's choice is unquestionably foolish, at least it was in some sense honorable to him, and developed his character as his father's son. His father--and his own honorable foolishness--was the entire point of Robb's war. Keeping this element would have made a thematic connection to the previous book/season, and it would have reminded us of Ned's character, as well ... a kind of retroactive character development. And it wouldn't have taken much to make the show true to the book. What did they gain by changing it?
Success will be my revenge -- DJT
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Cameraman Jenn
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I agree about too many sex scenes. I haven't gotten as far in the episodes as most of you but since I've read the books I don't feel spoilered by this thread. I must have missed the memo about Renly's gay relationship with Loras.
As far as some issues I have with some of the show, wasn't Asha Greyjoy supposed to be sexy? I am also unhappy with the portrayal of Maergary Tyrell. Not liking her portrayal. As far as the rest of the casting I think they did a fabulous job.
As far as some issues I have with some of the show, wasn't Asha Greyjoy supposed to be sexy? I am also unhappy with the portrayal of Maergary Tyrell. Not liking her portrayal. As far as the rest of the casting I think they did a fabulous job.
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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DukkhaWaynhim
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I'm Murrin
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She was shown to be just as crude and tough as her men in the books, but Asha never gave me the kinda slimy impression that the actress playing Yara does. In the books she comes across as pretty savvy when she's not tormenting Theon or playing up to her men (which admittedly is only in her own chapters in the later books).
I just watched "Blackwater". Pretty decent episode, though some of the battle stuff was a bit shaky - most significantly Stannis leading from the van, which is just plain stupid in any real battle. But since they cut the land army that came from south of the river (I can live with that, it'd be hard to put onto the screen and too big, also) they had to put him on the ships, which meant he had nowhere to go but out where the fighting was once the fleet was hit.
Also: The Rains of Castermere! Way too tuneful for a bunch of drunks singing in a bar, but the version over the credits was nice to hear. Needs more drums, though.
I just watched "Blackwater". Pretty decent episode, though some of the battle stuff was a bit shaky - most significantly Stannis leading from the van, which is just plain stupid in any real battle. But since they cut the land army that came from south of the river (I can live with that, it'd be hard to put onto the screen and too big, also) they had to put him on the ships, which meant he had nowhere to go but out where the fighting was once the fleet was hit.
Also: The Rains of Castermere! Way too tuneful for a bunch of drunks singing in a bar, but the version over the credits was nice to hear. Needs more drums, though.
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Cameraman Jenn
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I agree with Murrin. She was tough but not slimy and she was very clever and had sex appeal as I read her. The actress playing her is uber manly and creepy and gross. Not at all how I pictured her in the books.
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....
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I'm Murrin
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