Kevin's Watch

I don't have anything to add on the more deep discussion going on regarding what it means to be Jewish, or the importance or veracity of racial and ethnic identity...

However, on the original subject of encounters with people who are surprised at my Judaism, I have an anecdote to share. Over some seasonal vacation from school, I was the only student in a shuttle to the Dayton airport and got in a lengthy conversation with the driver about fishing, UFOs, and other subjects...at some point, he was discussing religion and churchgoing and I divulged that I was Jewish. He was absolutely astounded that someone so congenial and unassuming could be Jewish, and told me that he expected Jews to be stiff and unwilling to interact with what they perceived as a lower class of person. I think I responded rather benignly, simply indicating that perhaps Jews in general were more akin to myself than to what he perceived to be the norm...I was interested, but did not ask about, how much experience he had in dealing with Jews in order to formulate his earlier assumptions.

MsMary wrote:Conversion is very rare and not encouraged by traditional rabbis, although it obviously does happen.

Obviously, as there are quite a few non-semitic Jewish communities too. And that's sorta my point...Judaism doesn't require a certain ethnicity. Technically, anybody can be Jewish. Therefore it's a faith, not a race.

--A

It's a faith, and it's a cultural, historical, and ethnic heritage. And it's also a figment of our freaking imaginations.

Holsety wrote:I don't have anything to add on the more deep discussion going on regarding what it means to be Jewish, or the importance or veracity of racial and ethnic identity...

However, on the original subject of encounters with people who are surprised at my Judaism, I have an anecdote to share. Over some seasonal vacation from school, I was the only student in a shuttle to the Dayton airport and got in a lengthy conversation with the driver about fishing, UFOs, and other subjects...at some point, he was discussing religion and churchgoing and I divulged that I was Jewish. He was absolutely astounded that someone so congenial and unassuming could be Jewish, and told me that he expected Jews to be stiff and unwilling to interact with what they perceived as a lower class of person. I think I responded rather benignly, simply indicating that perhaps Jews in general were more akin to myself than to what he perceived to be the norm...I was interested, but did not ask about, how much experience he had in dealing with Jews in order to formulate his earlier assumptions.

You get that too, huh? I get it as a born-again, evangelical Christian. People are surprised to find out that we do not carry our 25-lb. King James Version under our arms, ready to thump other people's heads. I guess we all have stereotypes about other ethnic/cultural/social groups.

I actually came in here because I have a question. I was wondering what you think of Israel, about the world's various attitudes and policies toward the nation of Israel, and how does it affect you on a personal level? Just curious.

Israel the eschaton or Israel the current political entity?

Ron Burgunihilo wrote:Israel the eschaton or Israel the current political entity?

I was thinking of the latter (which is why I said "nation") but actually, whichever you have feelings about?

peter wrote:...Do his words display an 'It's not cool to be jewish' sub-current; yes I think perhaps they do - but then at the 'next level down' if you like they also say 'but it doesn't matter - it's ok because you aren't like that. It's awful - but I don't think it's anti-semitic. For me the obvious pain and anger it caused (as opposed to the realisation that the guy was a low intelect numb-skull and making an excuse to leave) is the most upseting aspect of the thing. Perhaps it's because I'm not young anymore but to be considered 'cool' or 'not cool' (and let's face it - you can never be less cool than to be old ) is so shallow a thing that it flys at a way higher level than what I would consider anti-semitism.

peter- I can't speak for lorin, but watching the video* ...what if it's not ABOUT that guy at the bar stool?
From what the lady said, it sounded like it was ABOUT her voice and her people.
I don't think the Hebrew Mamita would be much interested in wasting her time discussing whether he was a jerk or not..
...It's not about a random small, ignorant man.

You mentioned questions of "cool/not cool" ...I think those also aren't the issue either...
I think it's the build-up of the assumption that there will be opposition.
And that assumption is a correct and accurate reflection of reality:
Sometimes, there will be rejection.
Sometimes people will turn on you and attack you.
The stakes are lower when you're younger (maybe they are; or maybe they are just as high for what a young soul is prepared to deal with).

...Then there's the fact that she was reminded at the Wailing Wall - the one fragment standing from part of THE temple (singular)... destroyed almost 2000 years ago - in the presence of a concentration camp survivor, that some kind of "pushing back" was exactly what was most needed.

I think in some ways, my response sounds overly forceful, peter.
I guess I feel you're trying to minimize something which is really serious.
If you look at each of the individual symptoms, yeah... it doesn't sound like a very big deal..
(we always want to look away from evil, right? me too...)
But I think she's drawing it in to a larger picture... she sees herself as standing by and - even if only in some small way that evening - being an enabler of evil.

I think the fact that the very small, piddling scale of it is what troubles her.
"I couldn't just speak a few small words of disagreement in a bar with this man?"

* I finally watched the video... sorry I joined in the discussion before actually seeing what it was really about, lorin..

Avatar wrote:

MsMary wrote:Conversion is very rare and not encouraged by traditional rabbis, although it obviously does happen.

Obviously, as there are quite a few non-semitic Jewish communities too. And that's sorta my point...Judaism doesn't require a certain ethnicity. Technically, anybody can be Jewish. Therefore it's a faith, not a race.

Arg, Av.
I thought MsMary's main point is that only people who are really internally motivated WILL actually become Jewish, though.
But what does "technically" really have to do with anything?
Aren't there lots of different senses in which we "can" do things?

And descendants of Jacob are still Jewish, in some important senses, even if they practice another faith.

Did you not hear what the Hebrew Mamita was saying?
"a daughter of Abraham..."

I think that the Jews' connection to a larger story of generations past goes against your assumptions of how you think people should define themselves.

ron wrote:It's a faith, and it's a cultural, historical, and ethnic heritage. And it's also a figment of our freaking imaginations.

What do you mean by that?
I'm guessing that you're talking about how such distinctions shouldn't be grounds for people to say, "Hey, you're Jewish! Jewish people are supposed to have _this_ set of attributes... because that's what I think!"

But I'm wondering what you're -actually- thinking..

From my POV, I think there's a lot that's not a figment of our imaginations...
The Jews' decision as a people - in some critical ways - to not assimilate to their surrounding cultures... seems to be one sticking point that gets powerful people "riled up" again and again.
Surely history and people's decisions define... something that is significant?

Linna Heartlistener wrote: Surely history and people's decisions define... something that is significant?

But that's the point [and I think part of Ron's point]. Peoples decisions are the significant part.
"You don't LOOK Jewish," is exactly the opposite: it denies the decision, definition, and significance. Isn't that a large part of why it is offensive? [or at least a sign of ignorance/naivete?]
And, in important ways, when you say

Linna wrote: And descendants of Jacob are still Jewish, in some important senses, even if they practice another faith.

you're making a similar statement, just from the other direction, though I'm sure you don't intend it that way...but look at it: there are roughly 20 million Muslims in Syria, and almost every single one of them shares a common ancestor with all the mid-eastern Jews. How would they feel if you told them "in important ways, you are a Jew no matter your faith."

Vraith wrote:there are roughly 20 million Muslims in Syria, and almost every single one of them shares a common ancestor with all the mid-eastern Jews. How would they feel if you told them "in important ways, you are a Jew no matter your faith."
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I think they would calmly reflect on what she just said and then, with a measured reply, say "I see your point."

My biggest impression of a jewish person is this gorgeous jewish guy I used to go out with sometimes. Well, by out, I mean we stayed in. It is a good impression!

vraith and ananda... I was trying to think of how to craft a reply to attempt to demonstrate that you forget how very different a different culture can be.

Then I became worried about my massive ignorance, and thought "I'll be talking about stuff I understand so little about... surely there's someone here (at least 4 ppl who've commented on this thread) who has more of a right to speak than I.
Hmm, Why aren't they saying anything?"
Oh, right. What's today?

So I guess I forgot something kind of important!

I think I should give it a rest for a few hours, due to the fact that certain ppl who have more of a right to speak than I do... are keeping a sabbath!

Errrm, and maybe I'm a little stumped on how to respond to you guys too...

Linna Heartlistener wrote:vraith and ananda... I was trying to think of how to craft a reply to attempt to demonstrate that you forget how very different a different culture can be.

???
I'm not sure what/how I said something to lead you to that interpretation, because I meant the exact opposite. I'm emphasizing that point...the difference in culture is pretty much all the difference, and all the difference that matters.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Vraith wrote:
And let's not forget how infinitesimal these differences really are, that it's only the extreme detail/analysis/technology that makes this discussion even possible on a factual basis. IIRC, the total difference between the most UN-related people on the planet is a small fraction of 1%.

This is why I can't figure out why people even bother continuing to try and classify, quantify, and pigeonhole themselves into an arbitary ethnic group or "race". In that sense, we are just like dogs--a Doberman might not look anything like a Schnauser but they can have a litter together because they are both merely dog underneath.

They keep it alive because it's part of who they are. A Mongolian sheepherder can have a baby with a Norwegian, but that doesn't mean their cultural uniquenesses are not important to them. Culture and ethnicity is part of what makes earth an interesting place to be. Yes, it also means we clash, sometimes violently. But does that mean we should forget culture and everyone should be the same? I think the Maoists tried that in a little place called China in the last century. And in the US a lot of people tried to forget their Irish, or Polish, or Germanic origins and be homogeneous. I had to dig to find out about my Scots heritage, and it helped me understand a lot about myself. It's part of who you are, and people should celebrate that. No one is "merely" dog. Everyone is unique.

It's an important point I think...the value of culture and cultural identity.

But I'm of two minds really. Do we preserve culture at the cost of "progress" or improvement?

[EDIT: All "you's" and "yours" in the following are generic...not aimed at Deer or anybody else specifically.]

And sometimes I think that some people take the "cultural heritage" thing a little far. In contrast to trying to forget their heritage, they sometimes put too much emphasis on it.

One example that springs to mind is "African Americans." Unfortunately for them, their skin colour does not make them African. I'm more African than they are.

But it's by no means limited to them...European Americans suffer from the same sort of thing. Just because your grandfather was Slovakian, doesn't make you a Slovakian. You are a member of the culture that you were...well, inculcated with. Or acculturated to.

I'm not saying don't be aware of your heritage. I'm not even saying don't pay it some sort of homage. But I don't think it has any effect on who a person is that isn't in their heads, if you know what I mean.

--A

Linna, what I mean is Jewish is an identity for cultural, historical, and ethnic reasons, but those qualities are important as an identity only as a product of the human will to categorize and act accordingly. It shouldn't limit anyone.

bump just cause this is a great vid.

I agree w/Av. I'm of 2 minds as well. I went through adoption training, and it was stressed how important it is to make sure if you adopt a baby of another "race", that you don't ignore that culture of theirs and make it a part of their (and your) lives. It kinda struck me wrongly. Isn't my own child's culture determined by the family they are in? If I adopt a baby from the womb, they know no other culture, right? Or do they?

Much as we may not want this to be so, a child of a different race who is brought up with no reference points to the culture of that race remains a member of that race. There will be unenlightened members of your tribe who will see that person as "other" no matter how well inculcated your offspring is in your culture, and unenlightened members of the adoptee's tribe-by-birth who will reject them on much the same basis.

The pejoratives "Oreo" and "Banana" (both quite hurtful to the subject thereof) illustrate this. Have compassion for the kid you adopt and do not assume that teaching a sheep to moo will make the other cows accept it into the herd. Such will be an udder failure!

Wow, that was bad SD. And awesome!!

I totally agree, and am not suggesting we would ignore such things, but just stating my 2 minds about it. Does such reality help to keep the division? Maybe the cows can't accept the sheep b/c everyone knows they are different (different b/c we keep them different).