Graphic Novels

[dANdeLION]

By 'your stuff', do you mean your Ditko collection, or your own work? Again, I don't hate Ditko, and actually liked his Doc Strange and Spiderman stuff. I just wasn't a fan of the minor 70's DC work of his...truthfully, I don't think I really enjoyed many of the minor 70's comics put out by Marvel or DC.

[sgt.null]

my own stuff. I did a strange collage/dada comic called Zen Men. trying to find someone local to print it cheaply. we have some blown up pages we are coloring for give aways. but they are too muddled for proper use.

I enjoyed quite abit of the 70's stuff. but that's when I grew up so it may color my perception.

[dANdeLION]

If it's like the Zen Men you posted here, I'm wondering how you got permission from DC to use their characters.

[sgt.null]

not DC. but another comic was the basis. consider it a homage. I just like the name Zen Men. I will see if Julie can scan a few pages. I have no idea how to use our scanner.

[jwaneeta]

I just reread The Watchmen. What incredible writing and art. When it it first came out, I and my friends waited for each issue and then spent most of the day talking about it. You'd have thought it was a moon landing or something, we were so excited.

One thing that puzzled me then is a little easier to swallow:

Spoiler

The monster. After all the death ship imagery in the comic-within-a-comic pirate story, I suppose it should have made more sense to me than it did at the time. I just sort of felt back then that a monster was a little... off, somehow. I mean, the real "monster" of the story, the true horror, is the threat of nuclear war, and that very realistic threat had me quaking just fine. A blob-type monster, teleported to blow up, struck me as a little -- forgive me -- cartoony.

But I'm better with it now -- after all Ozy was nuts, his weapon needed to be nuts too.

One thing I did not remember well was the agonized advance of Rorshach's moral/heroic status. He rose slowly but steadily thoughout the story, and his bleak determination to follow his own rigid code lent him increasing dignity. When he was facing death and mailed his journal "to the only people he could trust," the reactionary exploitation rag The New Frontiersman, I felt my heart squeeze. Rorshach's trust was so fragile and battered, but he preserved it to the end. There was real pathos in that. And then of course the NF guys dumped his journal on the slushpile and I really felt like I'd been punched in the gut. Seriously, that was the only part of the book that brought tears to my eyes.

And yet -- who was right? Who won? Ozy's mad scheme did avert nuclear holocaust. Yet Rorshach reached from beyond the grave with that journal, which presumably destabilized the world and wrecked everything. The false ending of the book (bad guy goes scott free, morally subjective methods employed by heroes-turned-co-conspiritors) gives way to the real ending, wherein the creepy guy who attained martyr status with his uncompromising devotion to truth turns out to be the one who'll trigger Armageddon after all. I really don't know what to make of this.

I've always been ambivelent about Dave Gibbon's art, not because it's not outstanding, but just because looking at so much effort, page after nine-paneled page, makes me feel a little dizzy. It just stagers the imagination to think of how much work that must have been.

Yet here they are, twenty years later, and both creators have a book that's constantly in print and is one of the jewels of comics history. So I guess they knew what they were doing.

[sgt.null]

wasn't it Reagan who had said he wished we were attacked from outer space and then we could all band together? i think Oz was thinking along those lines.

[jwaneeta]

wasn't it Reagan who had said he wished we were attacked from outer space and then we could all band together? i think Oz was thinking along those lines.

I understand Ozy's motive, crazy/murderous as it was. What I'm left wondering about is the deeper theme of the story: when it looks like Ozy's succeeded and gotten away with it, the story seemed to be a bleak condemnation of subjective ethics. But then the story really ends, and we see that the only person whose ethics were never compromised, were never subjective at all -- Rorshach -- has effectively doomed mankind with his journal. So, is the point that rigid adherence to truth, an inability to see the grey side of things, is even more dangerous than megolomania?

I guess in the end you can just say it's a horror story, and that was the most horrific ending Moore could think of. But he's a careful writer, and when he tells a story it usually works on more than one level. Can't help but feel I'm missing something.

Have to say, I really liked the fact that after all the set up and Mars-side philosophizing, Dr. Manhattan doesn't lift a finger to save the earth -- all he does is agree to keep his mouth shut, and then he splits. Heh!

[Fist and Faith]

I've quoted this at least a few times in the almost four years I've been a Watcher. Here is the greatest moment in comic book history:

Stood in firelight, sweltering. Blood stain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion, bear children, hellbound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach.

Rorschach freakin' RULES!!! Truly, that paragraph is the Truth. (IMO ) Yes, Rorschach is a bit dark in his view of it. But if you're gonna be dark, you may as well do it with sublime beauty:

Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night.

What amazing imagery!!

Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone.

Again, amazing imagery - this time, amid the metaphysical solitude some of us feel. (As I said, Rorschach's view of it is darker than mine.)

And the big moment. The bare essence of everything:

Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose.

Leaving nobody else to blame:

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us.

If Moore never wrote anything but this paragraph, he'd be my hero.

[jwaneeta]

Oh, dear, I see I managed to misspell Rorschach through two posts. Sigh. Check everything, hurm. Always check.

Anyway:

And the big moment. The bare essence of everything:

Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose.

Leaving nobody else to blame:

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us.

If Moore never wrote anything but this paragraph, he'd be my hero.

I agree. It's ravishing.

So Rorschach imposes his pattern, adheres to his truth, and even though it gets the whole human race killed it's better than compromise, maybe? I'm not taking a stance pro or con on that message, I'm just trying to figure out if that's what the author was trying to imply.

Usually at the end of the day the character with the highest moral stature is the one from whom the reader draws the story's meaning, if there is one. And Rorschach seems to be that guy for The Watchmen. But if he'd known what would happen because of his posthumous expose, would he have sent it?

Well, it's been many years since my first reading of The Watchmen, and I'm almost as puzzled as I was the first time -- although for completely diffferent reasons.

[matrixman]

jwaneeta, you've brought up a lot of the same things that went through my head after I had finished Watchmen. Rorschach indeed would seem to have the last laugh with his journal - a pandora's box biding its time.

My feeling is that Rorschach would have sent his journal away in any case, consequences be damned. That was the strait moral line Rorschach walked: no compromise whatsoever, even if it may lead to ruin for all humankind. The way he sees it, we get what we deserve for our wickedness and pettiness, and there is no God to mourn our extinction. Rorschach probably wouldn't even blink an eye. He would just stare into the abyss, unmoved.

Those quotes by Fist sure moved me, though. Rorschach moved me. Well, almost every character in Watchmen has a story that affected me, but especially Rorschach's. Wow. Reading those lines put me right back in the book, even though I haven't touched it in a while. Yes, Rorschach does rule, even if he is a whacko. I remember lending my copy of Watchmen to a couple of coworkers years ago, and Rorschach had won them over, too. He's like...a rorschach test for readers. What does it say about those of us that are so sympathetic towards him?

Watchmen is so full of riches that...it really deserves to be discussed in its own thread. Heck, its own forum. Not that I'm suggesting any such thing, but if any "comic book" is worthy of one, it's this one.

[Fist and Faith]

Watchmen is so full of riches that...it really deserves to be discussed in its own thread. Heck, its own forum. Not that I'm suggesting any such thing, but if any "comic book" is worthy of one, it's this one.

Indeed! If there was ever a comic book that was worth Dissecting...
I started this thread:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=727
more than three years ago. Although it was originally for The Watchmen, it went lots of places. Now it hasn't seen a post in almost three years, and is on page 35 of Gen Dis.

So Rorschach imposes his pattern, adheres to his truth, and even though it gets the whole human race killed it's better than compromise, maybe? I'm not taking a stance pro or con on that message, I'm just trying to figure out if that's what the author was trying to imply.

Usually at the end of the day the character with the highest moral stature is the one from whom the reader draws the story's meaning, if there is one. And Rorschach seems to be that guy for The Watchmen. But if he'd known what would happen because of his posthumous expose, would he have sent it?

I agree with MM; I think Rorschach would have sent it regardless. And, in a way, I don't argue with that decision. In terms of intellect, humans are far beyond any other life form we've yet encountered. We also have as much of things like compassion as any other species, but are more aware of that compassion than any other. If such a species cannot survive through any other means than something like Ozy's lies, and self-deceit, then perhaps we shouldn't survive. We will have failed; proven ourselves unworthy. End it, and make room for someone else who deserves a place in the cosmos.

Yeah, it's a harsh stance. I doubt I'd publish Rorschach's journal myself. But I think there's something to be said for that idea.

Yes, Rorschach does rule, even if he is a whacko.

The only sane person on a planet of whachos would appear to be a whacko, eh?

[matrixman]

Interesting thread you linked there, Fist. But as you point out, it got derailed from Watchmen pretty damn quick. Bah!

Sure, I've read and enjoyed other comics and graphic novels. It's not too hard to pick out something with glitzier art than Watchmen, or to argue that issue number this or that of a particular comic has, say, a cooler fight sequence or better villains. BUT, in my view, Watchmen stands alone its intellectual depth and breadth, its philosophical richness. For me, only Moore's own V For Vendetta came close to scaling the heights of Watchmen or moved me as much.

[jwaneeta]

My feeling is that Rorschach would have sent his journal away in any case, consequences be damned. That was the strait moral line Rorschach walked: no compromise whatsoever, even if it may lead to ruin for all humankind. The way he sees it, we get what we deserve for our wickedness and pettiness, and there is no God to mourn our extinction. Rorschach probably wouldn't even blink an eye. He would just stare into the abyss, unmoved

and

I agree with MM; I think Rorschach would have sent it regardless. And, in a way, I don't argue with that decision. In terms of intellect, humans are far beyond any other life form we've yet encountered. We also have as much of things like compassion as any other species, but are more aware of that compassion than any other. If such a species cannot survive through any other means than something like Ozy's lies, and self-deceit, then perhaps we shouldn't survive. We will have failed; proven ourselves unworthy. End it, and make room for someone else who deserves a place in the cosmos.

And let's not feorget that that very idea was propounded by the omniscient Jon on Mars, before temporarily changing his mind due the reveal about his GF's paternity.

Yeah, on further reflection I'm inclined to agree with you both: Rorschach would have sent the journal in full knowledge of the consequences. After all, the moment he understood the scope and purpose of Ozy's actions, Roschach made a beeline for civilization to spill his guts, and only Jon (and death) stopped him.

And yes, his opinion on the viability/just desserts of the human race is established in the first pages of the book, so it hangs together. Very intense message for a POV character to deliver, to be sure. Watchmen is certainly unique.

[jwaneeta]

Watchmen is so full of riches that...it really deserves to be discussed in its own thread. Heck, its own forum. Not that I'm suggesting any such thing, but if any "comic book" is worthy of one, it's this one.

God forbid, hurm. But since we're all pals here (and with no pressure to continue or anything like that), here's a whole eight pages of Watchmen, you know, just for fun.

*disclaimer* I have deliberately NOT read any serious criticism or decontruction of Watchmen prior to writing this. I may be blowing it big time.

Watchmen, issue #1, pages – 1-8

The splash panel is a smiley face button in a river of blood. The blood is important, of course, as is the smiley face – the icon of the facile, be-happy seventies. Also important is the very shape of the face, and the fact that it’s a face. What’s round? The earth. What’s round? A watch. What’s round? A non-liner narrative. Hurm.

Rorschach’s journal is the first voice we hear, ragged pages in piss yellow: jumpy, floating, attached to nothing. As the stacatto words scroll – clearly troubled, obviously deranged -- the camera retreats and keeps retreating, back and back, until we are in the lofty POV of a rational observer, looking down on a crime scene.

We know all we have to know, and it’s only page one.

Then the backstory starts to unfold. It’s going to be a helluva backstory, labyrinthine and deeply cruel, but it starts easily enough: two jaded homicide detectives chewing over the exposition. Except it doesn’t read like exposition, because Moore punctuates every important clue with a visual pun that gives the exposition the impact of an uppercut.

At midnight, all the agents…

At midnight one of the agents, at least --the last and least -- enters a shattered window from outside, past torn curtains flapping in the vacuum breeze. Only one agent, a guy in thrift store pants and a stained duster. For three pages of silent art, he cases the empty apartment: his face is a mask of shifting white-on-black, and the lighting tells us this is a man quite accustomed to being where he shouldn’t be. He knows right where to go, what to look for. He hits the hidden button and discovers a cache the detectives missed: a closet with old costumes, photos, boots. The victim was once a hero.

[jwaneeta]

Next!

[lucimay]

i've read a Batman and a Sandman. and i've had a gander at my brother's Mage collection. but i'm not into the graphic novels so much as i am the films made from them.

Road To Perdition is one of my favorites. Sin City, of course. i really liked Spawn. was that a graphic novel or a comic?

anyway the format lends itself naturally to film storyboarding. so they adapt well and when done stylistically, make great films.

i know it wasn't a critical success but i like Constantine too.

[matrixman]

Whoa! you don't mess around, jwaneeta!

Yes, the blood and the smiley face...red amoeba-like splotch on yellow and black. Seeing that cover of the weighty trade paperback edition was how Watchmen first caught my eye all those years ago, on the shelves of a bookstore long since torn down. I did not follow the original 12-issue run, but instead read the whole thing in one fell swoop, so Watchmen truly exists in my mind as a "novel."

I knew I had to get the book after reading exactly those first 8 pages while in the store. The cinematic quality of the art was mesmerizing. The introduction of Rorschach's character was visually arresting, each panel like a frame in a movie. Who was this mysterious stranger with the sinister mask? I had to find out more.

Too tired right now. More thoughts later. Hurm...

[lucimay]

she's uh expert.

[jwaneeta]

i know it wasn't a critical success but i like Constantine too.

Dude, I count myself a traitor but I freaking bought Constantine. You never know.

[Loredoctor]

I threw the graphic novel I was working on in the bin two nights ago. I started it in 95 and stopped working on 98. REad it again and I really didn't like it.