Kevin's Watch

Well, then I'm glad not all sets of eyes are created the same. Don't judge--it doesn't become anybody. While I even agree with you in, somewhat, general, there are many different causes for "nice guy-ism" that can range from different forms of abuse to sexual identity. Told you're worthless constantly or psychically left alone for long periods--and/or having whacked siblings, being bullied at school, can all lead to lack of self-confidence, identity crises, PTSD a number of things even setting yourself up in the situation to perpetuate the cycle of abuse is normal in a addition you may have never brought on yourself. These are things that compassion and mental health workers (which, under compassion, should be all of us) should be addressing. Yes some should know better and get out, yes there are those in the middle that don't know any better, like temporary abuse or want to get in her pants, but don't have a friggin' clue...and there's some that just genuinely want to be friends. So don't write all of them off as losers some have fairly serious issues, some are genuine and some simply don't have too many steamers in the attic...and points in-between. The ones that get close just to shake hands with the bishop later, OK you can call them losers--I think most people call them prevs.

danlo wrote:Well, then I'm glad not all sets of eyes are created the same. Don't judge--it doesn't become anybody. While I even agree with you in, somewhat, general, there are many different causes for "nice guy-ism" that can range from different forms of abuse to sexual identity. Told you're worthless constantly or psychically left alone for long periods--and/or having whacked siblings, being bullied at school, can all lead to lack of self-confidence, identity crises, PTSD a number of things even setting yourself up in the situation to perpetuate the cycle of abuse is normal in a addition you may have never brought on yourself. These are things that compassion and mental health workers (which, under compassion, should be all of us) should be addressing. Yes some should know better and get out, yes there are those in the middle that don't know any better, like temporary abuse or want to get in her pants, but don't have a friggin' clue...and there's some that just genuinely want to be friends. So don't write all of them off as losers some have fairly serious issues, some are genuine and some simply don't have too many steamers in the attic...and points in-between. The ones that get close just to shake hands with the bishop later, OK you can call them losers--I think most people call them prevs.

Danlo that seems to be pretty fair for the most part. I'll think on it and get back to you. Perhaps my earlier statements were somewhat cavalier (but hey, look at my avatar anyway).

Vader wrote:

Syl wrote:One day I did myself and everyone else a favor and said, "I don't give a fuck." And I did say it, out loud, to no one in particular. More importantly, I meant it. I stopped caring about rejection. Stopped caring about what I thought I had to do to get laid and only worried about what I wanted to do. If I wanted to be friends with a girl, we'd be friends (and having been on the other side of that fence, I can say it isn't fun). If I wanted more, I'd put it out there, in pretty obvious terms (though not blatantly. I mean, there is such a thing as decency).

I wish I could say that this is a foolproof strategy. All I know is, weeks later I was dating a smoking hot girl I met in a club. Several months later, we were married. Years later we have two kids. *shrug*

That.

I also agree pretty much with what Don Exnihilote wrote.

Couldn't state my own views (and experience) better.

Every man over 40 is a scoundrel. A nice guy is just a wolf with patience. I've had female friends before - either after I've had as much sex as we've both wanted and have drifted apart into friendship, or because the woman has been so physically unappealing to me that sex was never part of the equation anyway and so I could 'get beyond it' to a point where it was never a peice of the jigsaw. I have lots of friendly relationships with ladies at work who I'm never going to have sex with - but their not my friends as such. I'm going to be brutally honest with myself here as well as you guys - the natural inclination toward sex is so big a hurdle to mentally overcome that it pervades all relationships between males and females capable of procreation - nice guy ones or otherwise. I've never had a 'friendship' with a woman (other than the types outlined above) where somewhere a part of me wasn't saying 'yes - I'd like to get into bed with you.' Guess I'm just a bastard. What happened to all the nice Guys - There never were any.

peter, thanks for that epic dose of honesty.

peter wrote:Every man over 40 is a scoundrel. A nice guy is just a wolf with patience. I've had female friends before - either after I've had as much sex as we've both wanted and have drifted apart into friendship, or because the woman has been so physically unappealing to me that sex was never part of the equation anyway and so I could 'get beyond it' to a point where it was never a peice of the jigsaw. I have lots of friendly relationships with ladies at work who I'm never going to have sex with - but their not my friends as such. I'm going to be brutally honest with myself here as well as you guys - the natural inclination toward sex is so big a hurdle to mentally overcome that it pervades all relationships between males and females capable of procreation - nice guy ones or otherwise. I've never had a 'friendship' with a woman (other than the types outlined above) where somewhere a part of me wasn't saying 'yes - I'd like to get into bed with you.' Guess I'm just a bastard. What happened to all the nice Guys - There never were any.

I don't buy it...too much like Freud, too simplistic by miles. [Speaking to the parts that include everyone...it may well be true of you, how the heck would I know?]
Look: Just because I want to [or merely would if the opportunity arose] have sex with a woman that doesn't mean I'm not a "nice guy."
[in many ways, I'm not...but just limit it to this thing for now, where I am].
There is nothing whatsoever bastardly about the desire for sex with someone, and there isn't/wouldn't be one iota of virtuousness/niceness in NOT wanting too, either.
And it sure as flying fucking hell doesn't mean there aren't myriad other reasons to be friends [or NOT be friends].
The libido is far from the ONLY thing that pervades all relationships between males/females. Most of the time I seriously doubt it is even the most potent one [except for a few years.] And....as on off-topic aside....it ALSO pervades all relationships between man/man, woman/woman...etc.

Vraith, your'e a nice guy*. But your'e not the 'Nice Guy' of this topic which, though it uses the same phrase, has a totally different set of meanings. And this type of 'nice guy' I contend, never existed anywhere outside of an idealised conception inside the head of the (most probably bruised) women who used the phrase. In fact the 'Nice Guy' of the phrase is not even the same guy that the passage that follows goes on about - the friendly, shoulder to cry on, always there dupe who never gets the girl but always picks up the tab after the louche lounge lizard who got the goods has f***ked of in persuit of fresh meat. In fact the dupe is actually following the tactic of the hyena - he's quite happy to pick over the carcass after the main event, and would even applaud the lizards actions if it gets him closer to his (lace enshrouded) goal.

No - the nice guy (of the phrase) is the guy who buys the flowers, doesn't want to f**k on the first date, has a sensible car and a 'life plan' and wants you to be in it. And when the office fox rubs the crease in his trousers he definitely doesn't take her into the box-room and f**k the shit ou of her - he gently reminds her that he is in love with....., but that he feels honoured that she see's him in that way. This guy possibly does exist - but his problem is that he is nice - and like all 'nice' things of this world, probably boring as hell (in fact to call something nice is quite possibly the worst condemnation you can stick on it. Who wants 'nice'; hell no, we want 'great'). [recant the first statement of this post V. - you 'aint nice ]. This is the 'nice guy' of the phrase, and the one confuted with 'hyena nice guy' in the passage.

(*I say 'you're a nice guy V.' at the start of this post [and forget all the crap I just said above - you know what I mean], and the question must be "how can I know". Well, I can't; I've never met you. I don't know if you've strangled your guinie-pig or fleeced your grand parents of their life savings, but if I assume (big assumption) that if you're like me, then you probably reveal more of your true self here on the Watch than you do to the people around you in life, with the exeption of your closest cofidants - close family and friends etc. On this basis [for the reasons, whatever they are, that make me like that, probably opperate in you as well, us both being human and all] I can assume that the persona I get to interact with (and see interacting with others) on the screen in front of me is probably a pretty good reflection of the person at the end of the wire. A nice (read great) guy )

(God - hope that post is half as much fun to read as it was to write! )

peter wrote:(God - hope that post is half as much fun to read as it was to write! )

Well, I had some fun with it.
In many ways we agree about niceness. [glance at my post on page 1 of thread, if you care to].
But I don't think at all that the guy who wrote the OP was ever, in any way, "nice." Not by ANY of the definitions...except maybe "subtle." Or at least attempting [and failing at] subtlety, using niceness as his suit underneath his real identity of Asshat.
People CAN grow and change in some ways...including niceness. But if he was EVER actually "nice" he wouldn't be blaming women for turning him into a bastard [and he sure as hell wouldn't be PROUD of it]. He'd know the problem was HIS, and becoming a shithead is NOT the path he would take.
People like the poster aren't nice folk that transform into men mad, bad, and dangerous to know....they turn into pushy, self-important, obnoxious twits that men who ARE both nice AND interesting joke about...usually to their faces.
The guy claims some kind of dichotomy.
But I say the natural and authentic abilities/attributes to:
A: Hold someone when they cry, care when they're wounded, without ulterior motive.
and
B: Consume a night [or day, or 10 frantic minutes at lunch break or a lifetime] in heat/lust/excitement
Are not mutually exclusive, any more than it is self-contradictory to equally and fully enjoy the day at the Tate and the night at the Devonshire Arms [does that still exist?].

peter wrote:V

. And when the office fox rubs the crease in his trousers he definitely doesn't take her into the box-room and f**k the shit ou of her - he gently reminds her that he is in love with.....

poetry...

I thought so Sarge . (Actually, I thought I was going to get roasted for that post [and probably deserved to]; I take it as a measure of the free-mindedness of my fellow Watchers that I am not currently standing on the side-walk stareing in longingly through a rain soaked window. I'm actually not all that bad and after making my original post immediately remembered about 10 examples that pretty much contradicted everything I had said in it).

We are as one on the article V. - I know where it was coming from, having been that 'nice guy who always finished last' myself on sooo many occasions; but I also know myself well enough to say that my intentions were rarely any better than the mongrel who caused the tears in the first place, even shrouded as they were by 'niceness'. I'm afraid nature gave man a dick and intended him to use it. Sex to me is a beautiful thing and of course I can suspend my desire for it in the face of distress or pain, and give support without desire or expectation of reward..........but while you're down there..... [no that last bit was just me being stupid again - can't seem to help it at the moment ]

Re the Devonshire Arms. There are two or three in the west-end still going, but the most famous one (Kentish Town Rd.) changed it's name to 'The Hobgoblin' [Why do they do that?] though the regulars still call it by it's old name. Gosh - there ain't many pubs in that neck of the woods that I haven't seen from a horizontal position .

peter wrote:but the most famous one (Kentish Town Rd.) changed it's name to 'The Hobgoblin' [Why do they do that?]

I don't know why they do that.
But that's the one I meant.
Had one of the 10 best nights of my life [so far] at that place.
I'm getting revved up to make a crazy night out tonight just remembering it.

More than likely I did too Vraith. I studied in London for 3 years - mostly studying the lasses in the various pubs and bars I used to frequent on a daily basis. Time well spent