Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:22 am
Roger was an interesting and colorful character who wasn't given enough play.Horrim Carabal wrote:Not even a "SUCKer"!lurch wrote:Not one F Bomb...not a one...what the..
Kevin's Watch
Official Discussion Forum for the works of Stephen R. Donaldson
https://kevinswatch.com/phpBB3/
Things that you were expecting, which just didn't happen
Page 3 of 4
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:41 am
Yes. Linden wasn't pregnant when she was summoned and so (given the "rules" of translations between the "real" world and the Land) couldn't be pregnant when she returned.rdhopeca wrote:Wouldn't that have required TC and LA to have been intimate prior to being summoned?Zarathustra wrote:Damn ... another great idea. (I'm going to try to refrain from quoting everyone here and saying that. You guys have come up with some good ones.)DoriendorCorishev wrote:When I first read some teasers about the beginning of the Last Chronicles, there was a reference to Linden's son -- my natural expectation was that it was Linden's and Covenant's son, conceived in the Land during the end of WGW (they were intimate after purging the Sunbane, IIRC).
This actually seemed like a very compelling idea. A child conceived in a land that may not exist (or at the very least doesn't exist within the same parameters as our world) and then raised in the real world. That child would never know his father (and the father would have been technically dead in the real world at the time of conception in the Land [!]). There would be great reason for that child to have a fractured mind and have some sort of nagging connection to the Land.
In fact, I'm still not entirely sure why the character of Jeremiah *couldn't* have been written as their child, to much greater depth of the story. It certainly would have given Covenant a greater connection to the character. And it may have served as a somewhat counter-example to his parentage of Elena. Almost every aspect of Jeremiah's own personality could have been the same in the story as it is written, but his PLACE in the story and his relations with the other principals could have been much more compelling.
Oh, and if he needed to be fourteen, just have 14 years pass in between the second and last Chrons instead of ten.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:43 am
However this does remind me that the final scenes of WGW involving Linden and Dr. Berenford provided quite a teaser in terms of the two of them becoming "an item", and what that might have meant for a subsequent Chronicles. As we now know this idea was scotched in ROTE.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:40 pm
I had expected a lot more from the ur-viles given their previous importance - Vain, manacles etc. A bit part at the end with She didn't really cut the mustard. I thought that they may have had some involvement with the worm but hey, no one did. Also thought there may have been an urvile confrontation with foul and/or the ravers - that would have been great. Vain still my favourite overall character but that's a different thread
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:50 pm
I suppose Linden being pregnant would have violated the logic of the Land/reality dichotomy, much like TC's beard would have proven the Land to be a dream. But I'd always thought a breakdown between reality and fantasy was something we were going to be shown in the Last Chronicles, so the identity of the father of Linden's child could have been a constant source of curiosity and uncertainty throughout the tale, with a big reveal at the end one way or the other (or ambiguous).
The fact that SRD chose not to explore this relationship between reality/fantasy as an element of the story itself seems to make the story pure allegory--as TheFallen has been saying--rather than surrealism, as Lurch has been saying. The only mixing of reality/fantasy is in the setup concept of the Land itself, just getting our characters into that allegorical space. Once they are there, in the Land, there is no more any crossing back and forth between the boundaries. We're dealing strictly with dead characters. No possibility of moving back and forth between reality/illusion, or life and death.
The fact that SRD chose not to explore this relationship between reality/fantasy as an element of the story itself seems to make the story pure allegory--as TheFallen has been saying--rather than surrealism, as Lurch has been saying. The only mixing of reality/fantasy is in the setup concept of the Land itself, just getting our characters into that allegorical space. Once they are there, in the Land, there is no more any crossing back and forth between the boundaries. We're dealing strictly with dead characters. No possibility of moving back and forth between reality/illusion, or life and death.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:51 pm
I agree, I'd have loved to read a scene between the ur-Viles and Lord Foul. He would regard them as traitors (or at least traitorous tools), and they would regard him as a liar and manipulator.ozrics wrote:I had expected a lot more from the ur-viles given their previous importance - Vain, manacles etc. A bit part at the end with She didn't really cut the mustard. I thought that they may have had some involvement with the worm but hey, no one did. Also thought there may have been an urvile confrontation with foul and/or the ravers - that would have been great. Vain still my favourite overall character but that's a different thread
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:04 pm
1) As others have said, I really expect the creator to say thank you or something. He did TPTP. Or, since the arch was already broken and Foul trapped in another way, make an appearance.
2) Liand to return. The laws of life and death and time were broken I thought Liand would make a return during the epilogue.
3) Some comment about the regular people of the Land. Once Kasstenessen went in the structure and Kevin's dirt stopped, all of the people of the land could now "see" again. I wanted to know how the newest Lord were going to reteach the people.
4) Some comment about how LA and J are able to live in the land but be dead in the their own world. I assumed that they were just "dying" in the real world and not dead yet. Like TC when bit by the snake.
5) What happened to the last Raver? Did he survive the re-making of the world? If not, there is still a evil roaming free.
2) Liand to return. The laws of life and death and time were broken I thought Liand would make a return during the epilogue.
3) Some comment about the regular people of the Land. Once Kasstenessen went in the structure and Kevin's dirt stopped, all of the people of the land could now "see" again. I wanted to know how the newest Lord were going to reteach the people.
4) Some comment about how LA and J are able to live in the land but be dead in the their own world. I assumed that they were just "dying" in the real world and not dead yet. Like TC when bit by the snake.
5) What happened to the last Raver? Did he survive the re-making of the world? If not, there is still a evil roaming free.
Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:46 pm
I think it's quite clear from the text that moksha Jehannum survived and is still running free. I see him becoming the new "big bad" while Foul stays imprisoned within TC.tj4242 wrote: What happened to the last Raver? Did he survive the re-making of the world? If not, there is still a evil roaming free.
Oh and someone mentioned liking Roger. I also enjoyed Roger's character. He fit the mold as the "evil by choice" character (I don't see Foul or the Ravers as being evil by choice - they are evil by nature). He's paper-thin and undeveloped, but sometimes in real life you meet people like that. They seem to have no reason for their horrible personalities and evil deeds - but there they are, regardless. I see Roger like that.
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:12 am
No such thing as evil by Nature. Just action and reaction. Even evil by choice is still a reaction to the outside world. Everyone is partly to blame - or we can't blame anyone at all..Horrim Carabal wrote:I think it's quite clear from the text that moksha Jehannum survived and is still running free. I see him becoming the new "big bad" while Foul stays imprisoned within TC.tj4242 wrote: What happened to the last Raver? Did he survive the re-making of the world? If not, there is still a evil roaming free.
Oh and someone mentioned liking Roger. I also enjoyed Roger's character. He fit the mold as the "evil by choice" character (I don't see Foul or the Ravers as being evil by choice - they are evil by nature). He's paper-thin and undeveloped, but sometimes in real life you meet people like that. They seem to have no reason for their horrible personalities and evil deeds - but there they are, regardless. I see Roger like that.
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:30 am
There's no such thing as Absolute Evil by nature, but there is certainly such a thing as evil (little 'e') by nature ... which is what Covenant acknowledged by internalizing his externalized-Despiser. Whatever we call "Evil" is merely a conceptual fiction, raised to the status of an Absolute. But we do indeed have within us all the seeds or the potential for actions which have given rise to the abstract concept of Absolute Evil. We are all capable of hate, jealousy, spite, revenge, destruction. In fact, destruction is in our very nature at the biological level. We can't live without feeding on death. Literally. We can't live without leaving a trail of waste behind us. We flush it away, or have the trash man carry it away so that we don't have to look at it. Or we say an incantation (repentance) that makes us feel like it has been washed away. But it's absolutely a part of us, even after we've been forgiven or have forgiven ourselves. The trashman and priests knows this better than any of us.
It is nature. It might not be Evil (capital "E"), but it's natural nonetheless.
Roger--to his credit--embraces his dark side. But where he got it wrong is that you also have to resist it.
It is nature. It might not be Evil (capital "E"), but it's natural nonetheless.
Roger--to his credit--embraces his dark side. But where he got it wrong is that you also have to resist it.
Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:04 am
He tried to resist but had received too hard of a shove - just couldn't overcome it. Action and reaction. In his shoes we'd likely act exactly like he did - and if our histories were identical we almost certainly would. There but for the grace... and all that. Yeah, the problem of this little evil is frustrated desire and the obsession with accumulating power and wealth to circumvent such a state. So it's an imbalance in nature but not natural. With our intelligence we can predict the problem. But the problem is not of our making, we can try, but if in a century or so we fail, there can be no blame. SRD mentioned something similair in TLD, though I can't remember if anbody gainsayed it in the text.Zarathustra wrote:There's no such thing as Absolute Evil by nature, but there is certainly such a thing as evil (little 'e') by nature ... which is what Covenant acknowledged by internalizing his externalized-Despiser. Whatever we call "Evil" is merely a conceptual fiction, raised to the status of an Absolute. But we do indeed have within us all the seeds or the potential for actions which have given rise to the abstract concept of Absolute Evil. We are all capable of hate, jealousy, spite, revenge, destruction. In fact, destruction is in our very nature at the biological level. We can't live without feeding on death. Literally. We can't live without leaving a trail of waste behind us. We flush it away, or have the trash man carry it away so that we don't have to look at it. Or we say an incantation (repentance) that makes us feel like it has been washed away. But it's absolutely a part of us, even after we've been forgiven or have forgiven ourselves. The trashman and priests knows this better than any of us.
It is nature. It might not be Evil (capital "E"), but it's natural nonetheless.
Roger--to his credit--embraces his dark side. But where he got it wrong is that you also have to resist it.
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:59 pm
I though Caerroil Wildwood would return with Linden to assume the duties of Salva Gildenbourne.
He just created a new forrestal. Maybe it was sorta true.. by proxy.
I thought that Jermiah would trapped Foul and trap the worm with the doors he can make.
Maybe he did trap the worm when they remade the world. Put back in it's slumber state. Took the remaded world but that is what he is good at.. build doors to anyplace.
Never saw the fane being built to preserve the Elohim.
He just created a new forrestal. Maybe it was sorta true.. by proxy.
I thought that Jermiah would trapped Foul and trap the worm with the doors he can make.
Maybe he did trap the worm when they remade the world. Put back in it's slumber state. Took the remaded world but that is what he is good at.. build doors to anyplace.
Never saw the fane being built to preserve the Elohim.
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:26 pm
^^^THIS. I was sure that the Creator visited Jeremiah with words of encouragement right before Roger came bursting through the door to kidnap Jer.dlbpharmd wrote:So did I. I thought he must've appeared to Jeremiah at the start of ROTE. I expected Jeremiah to reveal that.iQuestor wrote:I always thought the Creator would show up in TLD.
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:33 pm
I was surprised the epilogue wasn't Sheriff Lytton facing a recall election over his incompetent handling of a hostage crisis. 
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:30 am
I was very disappointed that Sheriff Lytton didn't end up in the land as Joan's hideous half-monster henchman. It just made sense on so many levels.
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:56 am
Me too. Once he was retired and wouldn't shut up. I expected this to be his big reveal.dlbpharmd wrote:So did I. I thought he must've appeared to Jeremiah at the start of ROTE. I expected Jeremiah to reveal that.iQuestor wrote:I always thought the Creator would show up in TLD.
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:48 am
I've commented about this on another thread, but this raises the question of how much harm the Ravers (or, in the recreated world, a Raver) can do without Lord Foul's guidance, especially now that there is a new cadre of Forestals to contend with, and various continuing powers in the world that know about Ravers and their history, and know how they can be unmade. As long as Covenant has Lord Foul on the leash, I doubt that moksha would be capable of much more than just random acts of malice and senseless destruction - and that in places out of sight, earshot and the range of other senses of the various powers for good.Horrim Carabal wrote:I think it's quite clear from the text that moksha Jehannum survived and is still running free. I see him becoming the new "big bad" while Foul stays imprisoned within TC.tj4242 wrote: What happened to the last Raver? Did he survive the re-making of the world? If not, there is still a evil roaming free.
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:46 pm
After seeing what a little shit he could be, I was hoping someone would spank Jeremiah.
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:07 pm
The Ironhand & co. did the Jeremiah-spanking in a fashion, by sulking and reprimanding him before the temple-building. Come on now, the pipsqueak managed to anger eight Giantesses! What a feat! Even Covenant with all his whining could not dampen Foamfollower's spirits!
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:02 am
He's free to roam the Earth, he's free to look for banes and powers to enhance his abilities. He's free to possess beings. He's free to cause all manner of evil for the people of the Land.DrPaul wrote: I doubt that moksha would be capable of much more than just random acts of malice and senseless destruction - and that in places out of sight, earshot and the range of other senses of the various powers for good.
The Ravers are adept at survival and Jehannum will no doubt avoid Forestals and others with the ability to harm him.
With Lord Foul's dominance removed, his own will is able to return. He will enact his designs free from any oversight or control.
I assume he will be a major threat and a big problem for the Land.