Kevin's Watch

Sometimes there are bigger things than being right.

Fist and Faith wrote:Ananda, your story shows how complicated racism can be. While flirting with a (half) black guy, you said a racist thing against blacks. A degree of racism was such a matter-of-fact part of you that it didn't occur to you that it was wrong.

Yes, I agree. I was a teenager then and it really hit me that, even if I didn't think in those terms or didn't think I did, I still had been trained to think about certain people certain ways. It made me re-evaluate myself. Ever since then, as I said, I notice when people add skin colour, sexuality, etc. into a sentence that where it served no purpose other than to call out the otherness.

Now, I don't think it has to go very deep. I think people can do it without any racism or bigotry at all. That said, I think racism and bigotry spawn from the same place as our tribal mentality that evolved with us. We all have some 'otherness' that we hold some disdain for, even if only at a subconscious level in my opinion.

I think Zs example goes into a different category since he was angry when he spoke. People can say things that they don't fully mean while angry. I do think we mean the nasty things we say when angry, but that's not the full story. We have many levels of beliefs and the most base ones, we all have, but are not necessarily what we really think when able to reason and act with more than our baseness.

Like that american celebrity guy I heard about (don't know who it was, really). He called some paparazzi a faggot or something when he was really angry at the man. Then, he had to go on some apology tour to explain that he really doesn't think negative about gays. But, part of his mind does, I think, but that's okay because it's just part, not all of it. We all have disdain for various other groups at some levels. To pretend we don't is absurd.

Mongnihilo wrote:Sometimes there are bigger things than being right.

Easily said when you can avoid feeling wronged.

Morning wrote:

Mongnihilo wrote:Sometimes there are bigger things than being right.

Easily said when you can avoid feeling wronged.

Sometimes leadership is about more than winning the argument. Sometimes we have to give up some of our rights and privileges to get people to lower their guard and follow our example. "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Mongnihilo wrote:

Morning wrote:

Mongnihilo wrote:Sometimes there are bigger things than being right.

Easily said when you can avoid feeling wronged.

Sometimes leadership is about more than winning the argument. Sometimes we have to give up some of our rights and privileges to get people to lower their guard and follow our example. "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

You're thinking of Mandela. The current state of affairs regarding newspeak, PC and appropriation of the Greater Good by a few elected and unelected is a galactic howitzer shot away from those days.

Fist and Faith wrote:I'm entirely willing to get over it. I think the blacks should too. But they aren't going to, nor should they be expected to, if racism is thrown at them all the time.

they should be expected to. by constantly allowing the excuse we allow for them to not move forward.

the president is black. the richest woman in America (oprah) is black. the most popular athletes, many of the most popular musicians, some of the biggest box office stars.

yet we are told that racism against them is so crippling that we must excuse the worst elements of their race.

lbj declared war on poverty. maybe we need to change our strategies?

sgt.null wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:I'm entirely willing to get over it. I think the blacks should too. But they aren't going to, nor should they be expected to, if racism is thrown at them all the time.

they should be expected to. by constantly allowing the excuse we allow for them to not move forward.

the president is black. the richest woman in America (oprah) is black. the most popular athletes, many of the most popular musicians, some of the biggest box office stars.

yet we are told that racism against them is so crippling that we must excuse the worst elements of their race.

lbj declared war on poverty. maybe we need to change our strategies?

+1000.

Who said we should excuse the worst elements of their race.

sgt.null wrote: they should be expected to. by constantly allowing the excuse we allow for them to not move forward.

the president is black. the richest woman in America (oprah) is black. the most popular athletes, many of the most popular musicians, some of the biggest box office stars.

yet we are told that racism against them is so crippling that we must excuse the worst elements of their race.

lbj declared war on poverty. maybe we need to change our strategies?

Lets see.
Poverty rates down. [slight uptick since 2000, the lowest point. But I think that's true for most, if not all races/demographics]
High school graduation rates up, and rising.
Percentage with college degrees up and rising.
Violent crime rates down and falling.
Unemployment is fun. It moves nearly exactly parallel to whites...averaging about 7% difference, and has since at least the LBJ era.
For thought fun, compare that difference in unemployment to the Labor participation rate...where the difference between white/black has been about 1/2 that.

Ananda wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Ananda, your story shows how complicated racism can be. While flirting with a (half) black guy, you said a racist thing against blacks. A degree of racism was such a matter-of-fact part of you that it didn't occur to you that it was wrong.

Yes, I agree. I was a teenager then and it really hit me that, even if I didn't think in those terms or didn't think I did, I still had been trained to think about certain people certain ways. It made me re-evaluate myself. Ever since then, as I said, I notice when people add skin colour, sexuality, etc. into a sentence that where it served no purpose other than to call out the otherness.

Now, I don't think it has to go very deep. I think people can do it without any racism or bigotry at all. That said, I think racism and bigotry spawn from the same place as our tribal mentality that evolved with us. We all have some 'otherness' that we hold some disdain for, even if only at a subconscious level in my opinion.

I think Zs example goes into a different category since he was angry when he spoke. People can say things that they don't fully mean while angry. I do think we mean the nasty things we say when angry, but that's not the full story. We have many levels of beliefs and the most base ones, we all have, but are not necessarily what we really think when able to reason and act with more than our baseness.

Like that american celebrity guy I heard about (don't know who it was, really). He called some paparazzi a faggot or something when he was really angry at the man. Then, he had to go on some apology tour to explain that he really doesn't think negative about gays. But, part of his mind does, I think, but that's okay because it's just part, not all of it. We all have disdain for various other groups at some levels. To pretend we don't is absurd.

I dont agree that its racism to bring up a color difference. Example at our office. We were talking about an issue on out in the DC and the supervisor who works for me (who is black) said, "Its the black girl with the big hair".... Now she could have just said "the big haired lady in Sortation" and I would have known. But does that make her racist that she used black as a descriptive word?

SoulBiter wrote:

Ananda wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Ananda, your story shows how complicated racism can be. While flirting with a (half) black guy, you said a racist thing against blacks. A degree of racism was such a matter-of-fact part of you that it didn't occur to you that it was wrong.

Yes, I agree. I was a teenager then and it really hit me that, even if I didn't think in those terms or didn't think I did, I still had been trained to think about certain people certain ways. It made me re-evaluate myself. Ever since then, as I said, I notice when people add skin colour, sexuality, etc. into a sentence that where it served no purpose other than to call out the otherness.

Now, I don't think it has to go very deep. I think people can do it without any racism or bigotry at all. That said, I think racism and bigotry spawn from the same place as our tribal mentality that evolved with us. We all have some 'otherness' that we hold some disdain for, even if only at a subconscious level in my opinion.

I think Zs example goes into a different category since he was angry when he spoke. People can say things that they don't fully mean while angry. I do think we mean the nasty things we say when angry, but that's not the full story. We have many levels of beliefs and the most base ones, we all have, but are not necessarily what we really think when able to reason and act with more than our baseness.

Like that american celebrity guy I heard about (don't know who it was, really). He called some paparazzi a faggot or something when he was really angry at the man. Then, he had to go on some apology tour to explain that he really doesn't think negative about gays. But, part of his mind does, I think, but that's okay because it's just part, not all of it. We all have disdain for various other groups at some levels. To pretend we don't is absurd.

I dont agree that its racism to bring up a color difference. Example at our office. We were talking about an issue on out in the DC and the supervisor who works for me (who is black) said, "Its the black girl with the big hair".... Now she could have just said "the big haired lady in Sortation" and I would have known. But does that make her racist that she used black as a descriptive word?

No, I don't necessarily believe it is either as I said.