Male escorts and female sexuality

[Dondarion]

I don't think I ever said (or at least I never meant to say) that sex itself is spiritual. It is not. It is what it is, a beautiful and really fantastic bodily act of pleasure between two people. Intense desire, juices flowing, getting busy, it's all of that. What's spiritual are the people who participate in the act. It's the stuff we are made of. As lorin says so eloquently, we long for companionship and commitment, and base sex is empty of that. It may seem fine now, depending on where we are in life. But everything leaves a mark. We affect each other by what we say and do every day. Do we really know what kind of effect our choice to engage in promiscuous sex han on tHe other person? Their family? Is it fair to take that risk for a 'quickie', whether you pay for it or not? Yes, I am old fashioned I guess. I do believe our bodies are a temple of spirit, because the Lord tells us that. We are essentially renters of these bodies, and they should be honored as best we can. That's all I have been saying, and I think I will leave it there.

[peter]

If my child wants to become a gigilo, then cool for him. Sex is not degrading, dirty or wrong.

Say it was your daughter Ananda?

I'm not sure I do understand the question. Is there a difference?

I guess this is that thinking that leads sexually active men to be studs and sexually active girls to be sluts? I don't know if you read the article or not, but they reference a study that shows that women are just as if not more sexually aroused by visuals as men. Women have a sex drive, too. There are just social norms that likes to repress female sexuality in many cultures.

But, on my child becoming a prostitute, it is not something I dream of him becoming. I won't throw a party. But, if the situation is all agreeable and consensual, then it is a job. Beside, there are worse jobs out there.

For jobs that can 'damage' emotionally (not in all cases, of course, but *can*), how about
soldier
police
slaughterhouse worker
the people who sort newborn male and female chickens and throw the males into a grinder ALIVE
prison guard
any job where you deal with the worst element of a segment in some way so that's all you see after a time

Is the topic a joke? Well, I thought it was a fun article. But, these women are going to these male escort services. It is real. I read about a similarly growing trend in other places, too.

Dondarion, which country are you talking bout? I don't subscribe to 'moral decay' arguments for any place, really, but I am from sweden and the article is about people in australia.

Gosh, I'm not sure I know how to answer that one. Perhaps it is a reflection of the different 'mindset' between the British and Swedish peoples, but yes - to me there is a difference, though it has more to do with care and risk than 'studs and sluts'. Let me be clear from the outset that I believe a woman is exactly as free to do whatever she chooses with her own body as a man, and any man that is even interested in his wifes sexual history prior to their having met is a fool [and of course vica-versa]. But the fact remains that inside me and probably related to my age] is a thing that says a womans sexual favour is a thing that she has a right to offer or not as she chooses - a gift if you like - and that a man has the right to try to 'tempt' her into offering, but absolutely no more. [Putting it into coarse words like this makes it sound bad, but I refer to no more than the interplay that has gone on between young men and young women since the dawn of time.]

But as soon as any element of force is entered into this mix the situation becomes ugly, and the 'force' that can be applied by economic privation is no less real than a pair of hands on a pair of shoulders and this is where the [on the face of it] 'free-thinking' ideas of 'consensual prostitution' breaks down; it is never free of the coercive element of economics whether it be the need to put your next meal in your belly and procure your next nights lodgings or whether it be to poen a door to riches that you could never, ever hope to acess by any other means.

This is where I should end but I feel compelled to say that [with the exeption of people who 'throw live chicks into grinders'] the jobs selected as being 'worse than prostitution' in terms of the damage they can do to one are all jobe that must be done in an ordered society. These jobs take great responsibility - and great humanity as well - to be properly done and the trick is to do them and retain that humanity over the years. Granted many fail in this, but so do many succeed.

[Ananda]

Gosh, I'm not sure I know how to answer that one. Perhaps it is a reflection of the different 'mindset' between the British and Swedish peoples, but yes - to me there is a difference, though it has more to do with care and risk than 'studs and sluts'.

Maybe it is cultural or age dependant? I don't know either. I asked a couple of my friends what they thought about this article and they reacted very mildly to it. One friend joked she was getting together the money now. Of course that could just be that I have friends with similar mindset to me.

But, as to there being a difference, I really see none. Women are no more fragile flowers than men are unfeeling louts, I think. Just my opinion, but I don't think that seeing men and women so differently in terms of their sexuality/psychology does credit to either. Of course, many will adhere with these cultural norms and hormones has a big influence in behaviours, too.

the jobs selected as being 'worse than prostitution' in terms of the damage they can do

Sorry, maybe my sentence orders were not really clear. I didn't say these jobs were worse, I said they can also cause emotional issues or shifts in perspective to dehumanise/objectify living creatures and so. I think you may have gotten the impression since I said that there are worse jobs than prostitution and then had a list of stuff that I said could also be 'damaging'. My mistake on ordering the sentences that way.

Yes, I am old fashioned I guess. I do believe our bodies are a temple of spirit, because the Lord tells us that. We are essentially renters of these bodies, and they should be honored as best we can. That's all I have been saying, and I think I will leave it there.

That's fine. We all have our opinions on life and this is yours. I respect that you want to live your life based on this idea of yours and hope you can allow that others live as they want, too. I guess the problem that inevitably comes up from the meeting of different mindsets is that one (or both or all ten) will feel they are speaking some objective truth and then try to impose this objective truth on the others for their own good.

To me, we're all babbling and self deluding. Everything we think we know in terms of 'what is' is our delusion. I've always liked this bit of a poem on the topic.

What is social company
But a babbling summer stream?
What our wise philosophy
But the glancing of a dream?

[Vraith]

The rise of single-parent families is one of the most important factors in the cause of poverty, deprivation and crime. Conservative politics has at core the valuing and thus control of sex. 'Liberal' politics is more liberal about it and yet still has a huge element of 'family values' at its centre.

Slightly off-topic, but...
Yea, family values...and the socio-political control of sex.

Why is it the rise of single-parent families that is the problem? Why isn't it the loss of large extended families? Why isn't it the fact that we've decided that tossing our offspring out of the house as soon as they're "adult," [which leads to the tossers being tossed into the lonely, expensive, trash-bin of a home once they hit "old."] that's the problem?
Is it the fact of single-parent families? Or that we cast them out, after building a socio/eco/political structure that creates them?

[Fist and Faith]

I think an economy that's run by politicians who make decisions based on what's good for them instead of what's good for the economy, is a more important factor in the cause of poverty.

But it doesn't matter. Sex has always played many roles in our species. Nothing new is going on today. Who thinks otherwise?

Ananda, the word "spiritual" can mean different things to different people. And sex can be something that falls, or at lease can fall, into the definition that Dondarion has. Just because it doesn't for you or me, doesn't mean it can't for anyone else. I don't feel God's presence at any point, so I don't during sex with my wife. If he feels God, then that's how he'll view sex. It's a legitimate view, for him.

Mind you, sometimes people of great religious faith, even those high in a church's hierarchy, have as much trouble differentiating an intense lust for someone with a love that will last a lifetime. What someone might think is a feeling that "God wants us together" turns out to be a cheap affair that hurts families intensely. Not just talking out of my ass here. I know two different guys, both ministers, who had this kind of affair. (Not with each other, mind you.) Hormones are a big part of love, and sometimes they steer you the wrong way.

[Orlion]

To me, we're all babbling and self deluding. Everything we think we know in terms of 'what is' is our delusion. I've always liked this bit of a poem on the topic.

What is social company
But a babbling summer stream?
What our wise philosophy
But the glancing of a dream?

I like it! Ten points to Gryfinndor!

[Ananda]

Ananda, the word "spiritual" can mean different things to different people. ... It's a legitimate view, for him.

That is exactly what I said.

[Vraith]

Maybe it is cultural or age dependant? I don't know either. I asked a couple of my friends what they thought about this article and they reacted very mildly to it. One friend joked she was getting together the money now. Of course that could just be that I have friends with similar mindset to me.

Speaking of culture...a little amusing aside, sorta related...was talking with someone about this thread. Student here at Gustavus Adolphus. And apparently y'all don't have a native word for female masturbation? And there is, was, or will be soon a vote on what it should be? [don't know if it's an "official" kind of thing, or just a thing like Time magazines poll on words that should be banned.]

[Fist and Faith]

Ananda, the word "spiritual" can mean different things to different people. ... It's a legitimate view, for him.

That is exactly what I said.

Sorry. I've had a very rough week.

[michaelm]

I've seen a few guys here sort of exaggerate up the ideal of love sex and how it is some spiritual, height reaching thingie. I don't know about that. I am not sure romanticising sex (haha) is really necessary.

It reminds me of a joke I was told years ago that was I guess primarily suggesting that females are more likely to take that approach, but I really don't know that it reflects reality.

Anyway, it goes something like this:

Q. What do women mean by 'making love'
A. Oh I don't know, it's something they do while you're shagging them

Disclaimer: I only noted that it's a joke - I never committed to saying that it's actually funny...

[Cybrweez]

The good thing is, as a man, I can force whatever I want on women in general, b/c I am stronger and have the power. And I can feel no guilt, b/c it's not wrong.

All you people who are forcing your beliefs on me need to step off. For instance, degrading my desire to exploit women for my own gain, who do you think you are?? Enough with the self-righteousness!

[Ananda]

Maybe it is cultural or age dependant? I don't know either. I asked a couple of my friends what they thought about this article and they reacted very mildly to it. One friend joked she was getting together the money now. Of course that could just be that I have friends with similar mindset to me.

Speaking of culture...a little amusing aside, sorta related...was talking with someone about this thread. Student here at Gustavus Adolphus. And apparently y'all don't have a native word for female masturbation? And there is, was, or will be soon a vote on what it should be? [don't know if it's an "official" kind of thing, or just a thing like Time magazines poll on words that should be banned.]

I didn't know anything about this till you mentioned it. Looked it up and found the story. Here it is if you want to see it.
www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19923701.ab
translated by google for you:

Now Swedish women klittra
It's time to learn a new word:
Klittra.
- There is a good word because you immediately understand that it is a verb and that it has the clitoris to do, says linguist Karin Milles, an expert on gender order.
It is RFSU, National Association for Sexuality Education, who voted for a new word for female masturbation.
- The lack of a true word and it is necessary if we are to talk about it, says union chairman Kristina Ljungros.
The 250 proposals coming from the public. Now more than twelve thousand people had their say has klittra received 30 percent of the vote, far more than any other suggestions.
- It has all the makings of an established word, absolutely, says Karin Milles, Associate Professor of Swedish and lecturer at Södertörn University.
She should know. She knows more about Swedish sex words than most and has even written a whole book about them: "King Charles and love cave".
ancient words
Many of the sex and gender order now in use are very old, she says.
People have, for example, talked about to fuck for thousands of years with exactly the same meaning as in the day.
Both cock and cunt has roots in the Middle Ages.
The clinical verbs masturbate masturbation is much newer, they were first used in the 1800s.
Other words, from the beginning had an entirely different meaning than it has come to get with the times.
- In the past meant jacking "shake" in general, but began to be used in its current importance of including August Strindberg at the end of the 1800s. Since then, it iunte further to say that someone "jerking on her head."
Klittra other hand, is a new creation. But that was not the only popular proposal in the vote.
- My favorite was onna, it is gender neutral and very easy to understand what it means. But if you absolutely must have a feminine word I think klittra is excellent, says Karin Milles.
Have done it before
RFSU has successfully engaged in language development in the past. Fifteen years ago it launched "snipp" as the name of the female sex organ. Today it is a fully established expression and is since 2006 in the Swedish language, living room furniture, Swedish Academy's dictionary.
- Part of the reason was probably that it resembles the word penis but with a clearly feminine connotation, says Karin Milles.
Before the new word gets wings and eventually might end up in the Glossary, both linguists and RFSU Congress say. First, in May next year, we know definitely what it gets.

[Dondarion]

With that last post from Cybrweez, I think we can see where this may be heading. Too bad. Anyway, I had to point out one last thought:

Fist and Faith wrote:

I don't feel God's presence at any point...

Rest assured you are in good company. Jesus didn't feel God's presence on the Cross, either. Yet he laid down his life, because he knew humnity needed saving. Mother Theresa didn't feel God's presence for most of her life as a nun serving the poorest of the poor (an amazing factoid I only recently read about). But she persevered because she knew she needed to love her neighbor.

What I am simply saying is that not 'feeling' something doesn't mean it's not there, good or bad. I have been married for 28 years. We may not 'feel' things the same way as we did as newlyweds, but we love each other in deeper and more meaningful ways (and the other stuff too). We continue to mature together in our relationship, and that maturing has also opened our eyes to other things, which lead us on the journey, and we realized it is a journey, and it's not all about ourselves. And that's really what's more important than those first few wonderful years as nelyweds.

And so when we look at something like prostitution, IMHO, we are off the path of the journey, whatever that may be, but it has to be off the path, doesn't it? If its part of the path, than to me it's a waste. If life is all about how I 'feel' today, I think it's kind of a shallow existence. But, the good news is we can always get back on the path, or at least get back to looking for it. We're all in this together. Have a little faith, fist.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I don't find my existence to be at all shallow. And the path I'm on is the only one that looks real to me. And I have great faith in myself. I imagine you can say the same things about yourself. I wish everyone could.

[ussusimiel]

With that last post from Cybrweez, I think we can see where this may be heading...

Knowing 'Weez, I would hazard that his post is tongue-in-cheek. Hopefully this thread has plenty more of worth to offer

...We continue to mature together in our relationship, and that maturing has also opened our eyes to other things, which lead us on the journey, and we realized it is a journey, and it's not all about ourselves. And that's really what's more important than those first few wonderful years as nelyweds...

Even though I have never been married, any of the extended relationships that I have been in have had this same quality. In the intimacy and sharing of the relationship both people developed and grew. Sexual intimacy was a significant part of this and was, in my experience, an important element in enabling the relationships to become richer. To reduce the description of sex to bare chemistry and the mechanics of the act is inaccurate and seriously narrows the potential involved.

...And so when we look at something like prostitution, IMHO, we are off the path of the journey, whatever that may be, but it has to be off the path, doesn't it? If its part of the path, than to me it's a waste. If life is all about how I 'feel' today, I think it's kind of a shallow existence...

Again, I agree with this. The commodification of sex leads to the destruction of intimacy. Fortunately, intimacy cannot be commodifed. And, fortunately, no matter how hard they try, our humanity also cannot be commodified. In fact, intimacy and love can be viewed, in their own quiet way, as revolutionary.

u.

[Ananda]

To reduce the description of sex to bare chemistry and the mechanics of the act is inaccurate and seriously narrows the potential involved.

I'm not sure that's what is happening. People tend to idolise the romantic notion of love (at least in western cultures) and say that sex is lesser without this romantic love or that idle sex for fun or even for pay is reducing it to a mechanical aspect or cheapens it. That can happen, of course, with any type of encounter, romantic love relationship or chance encounter, but it doesn't have to be the case.

Many believe that the sharing of the intimacy, whether it be from a long, committed romantic love relationship or from a single encounter with someone who you had never met prior can be equally as intimate and meaningful. Of course, when we talk about 'meaningful', then that is down to personal psychology again. One can say that only sex from true, romantic love in a committed relation is the deepest form of intimacy. Another can say that any sex can be that because the act of doing it and sharing this intimacy with another human being, no matter your relationship is deep and beautiful and filled with meaning. It is all a state of mind.

And, of course, there is depeche mode with freelove.

I personally fall on the any act of intimacy can be deep and beautiful if you allow it to be side. Not that all *are* but all have the ability to be so.

Of course, I also approach random people and have conversations with them as a sort of hobby. What often happens is just a pleasant exchange and nothing more, but sometimes you have this great moment with a person you've never met. You can steer the conversation to bypass the typical small talk and cut to the real people behind the masks (many ways to interrupt the expected pattern). I'd say I've had some very 'intimate' moments with people I'd never met before and will never meet again. We just shared this moment. Then, the moment is gone and we both move on with our lives both enriched for it.

[Dondarion]

Ananda write:

I also approach random people and have conversations with them as a sort of hobby.

I like that. I think we all find ourselves in a moment like that once in awhile. But you seek it out, Ananda, you have made it a habit. Wonderful. And you see, that's just it. A moment like that is so charitable, a sort of giving of yourself to open up possibilities, even if to put a little smile on the face of another for a few minutes, priceless. Who knows what people are going through? Family, work, illness....you have no idea how many people you might have changed the course of a day or even beyond.

I'm not trying to make this too dramatic, cuz it's not supposed to be. But I am setting up my point, and that is that these little encounters are the stuff of real life, they leave a mark. A paid (or even a random casual) sexual encounter, however, wouldn't come anywhere close to having the same effect, in fact in my view, it cuts the other way. How often do we see the act of a casual sexual encounter was really all about the juices flowing and nothing more, or if something more it still ends with the two people avoiding each other the next day (out of a sense of guilt or whatever emotion is working here), and thus negating the possibilities of a relationship (not necessarily an intimate one). Why should this be, but for the fact that a person must intuitively know that the sharing of oneself sexually with another is an intimate and particularly meaningful act, which comes with responsibility, and so they avoid the responsibility, especially when the act was merely to gratify an immediate urge. On the other hand, you wouldn't avoid saying hello if you bumped into the person you had randomly approached at the coffee shop to chat with. In the end, which of these two types of encounters was more worthwhile....for the other person?

[Dondarion]

Fist and Faith wrote:

Well, I don't find my existence to be at all shallow. And the path I'm on is the only one that looks real to me. And I have great faith in myself. I imagine you can say the same things about yourself. I wish everyone could

Of course, and I agree. I am not questioning anyone's sense of worth here. I was merely addressing the "feelings" thing, and that feelings are more of a gift than a right, I guess. Sometimes we have them, and we cherish the moments. But they are often fleeting, and that doesn't make certain truths less truthful.

[Ananda]

Ananda write:

I also approach random people and have conversations with them as a sort of hobby.

I like that. I think we all find ourselves in a moment like that once in awhile. But you seek it out, Ananda, you have made it a habit. Wonderful. And you see, that's just it. A moment like that is so charitable, a sort of giving of yourself to open up possibilities, even if to put a little smile on the face of another for a few minutes, priceless. Who knows what people are going through? Family, work, illness....you have no idea how many people you might have changed the course of a day or even beyond.

I think meeting random strangers is a lot of fun. One of the main things I like to do is compliment people. I don't even always really mean it, but I say it sincerely and most people enjoy getting compliments.

Funny you should mention longer effects...This morning, I was just thinking of a man I knew from a work situation some years ago. I was new at a job with a large company and wehad a small company come in and provide a service on a semi regular basis. One of the early encounters with their team, there was a small problem and I asked one of the guys to check it for me. He wasn't the boss, just one of the guys. He fixed the problem for me and that could have been that. But, I decided to email his bosses boss and say what a great job he did just because I could. I didn't think about it again.

I didn't see the man much, but always smiled and said hello when I saw him. One day, about seven months later, he approached me and thanked me for sending that email. He and his wife were recent immigrants and his swedish was not very good. But, he told me that, when the company got the email I had sent, they gathered the whole team up and the main boss read the email out loud to the whole crew. He said he was really, really happy about it and his bosses were really happy with him. Shortly after, he said got a promotion and, because of that, he and his wife bought a house. He was sure that the email had helped him along with that and was really happy with me. To me, it was just a whim that took less than a minute of my life to type a paragraph or two saying what a nice job he had done.

Little different than a random conversation, but with random conversations you never hear from them again so have no way of knowing if you had any effect or they immediately forgot you. I know I still remember some faces, but never asked their names.

I'm not trying to make this too dramatic, cuz it's not supposed to be. But I am setting up my point, and that is that these little encounters are the stuff of real life, they leave a mark. A paid (or even a random casual) sexual encounter, however, wouldn't come anywhere close to having the same effect, in fact in my view, it cuts the other way. How often do we see the act of a casual sexual encounter was really all about the juices flowing and nothing more, or if something more it still ends with the two people avoiding each other the next day (out of a sense of guilt or whatever emotion is working here), and thus negating the possibilities of a relationship (not necessarily an intimate one). Why should this be, but for the fact that a person must intuitively know that the sharing of oneself sexually with another is an intimate and particularly meaningful act, which comes with responsibility, and so they avoid the responsibility, especially when the act was merely to gratify an immediate urge. On the other hand, you wouldn't avoid saying hello if you bumped into the person you had randomly approached at the coffee shop to chat with. In the end, which of these two types of encounters was more worthwhile....for the other person?

Maybe you're right for yourself and others who think in a similar way to you.

What my experience has been is that, in any relationship I've been in, including my marriage, there are times when you just have sex as opposed to some intense love making. Your guy is horny and ... well, you just do it. No one I know always has this incredible love making experience. The 'nothing more than juices flowing' stuff happens in all relationships all of the time in my opinion. For me, all experiences can potentially be equally as deep and beautiful or meaningful. It is a state of mind. And, maybe, a willingness to live in the moment without expectation.

But, there are 7 billion people on the planet and each one has a different idea that they think is right. And the rest of the animals... they don't care what we think at all. I like your style, Dondarion. I'm glad you're posting.

Also, people pay therapists to listen to them so they feel better.

[Dondarion]

Ananda wrote:

Funny you should mention longer effects...This morning, I was just thinking of a man I knew from a work situation some years ago....

What a great story! I mean, wow, you had the joy of seeing how your sharing something small amounted to something big. I hope and pray that in the next life we all get to see how the little things we did in this life made a difference to people. Sounds like you are building up for quite a tale one day!

Ananda wrote:

For me, all experiences can potentially be equally as deep and beautiful or meaningful.

True, and that's as it should be. Life is more complex than black and white. There are many aspects to human interaction, and even if it may not have the most altruistic motivation, there is good that can be found. I will even go as far to say that in the example of paid prostitution, there can still be found the opportunity for human beings to share something with each other, perhaps buld someone's esteem up, perhaps just being with someone at that moment is what that person needed. There are positive aspects, but there are also positive aspects of me sitting at a card table with the fellas and gambling money I don't have. The fellowship is a good in itself, but it was selfishly motivated, and risky to others in my life.

And you are correct that every person has his/her own perspective. That's what makes human beings so special. I have only meant to suggest throughout this post that there are certain truths that are unchanging in the world, whether we acknowledge them or not (a door is still a door, even if I say it's a fence). And even with ethical and moral questions, it's not always the case that there can be no right answer, or to each his own. That perpective has it's place, of course, but regarding the topic of this particular forum discussion, I just think it's misplaced.

And now, speaking of relationships, I better get back to helping my wife with Thanksgiving preparations. She has enjoyed me reading the comments on this topic, but I think she'd rather have me set the table! Happy Thanksgiving to all my American friends out there!