Kevin's Watch

After the last three turds Lucas dropped in the Star Wars punch bowl, I wouldn't see another Star Wars movie in theaters with free tickets. In fact I've basically tuned the whole thing out.

Mr. Abrams didn't create a very Trekky Star Trek. And Star Wars is for children, or else it ain't Star Wars.

wayfriend wrote:And Star Wars is for children

Really? Within in the first 6 minutes of Episode IV we see Darth Vader kill a man with his bare hand by strangling him...then we get to see Owen and Baru's skeletonized remains after they had been shot then burned...then later on they blow up an entire planet. Then again, many children's stories are often full of death and other nasty business.

"Pandering to children" is exactly why no one likes RotJ. SW and TESB are full-on adult films which give a large nod to the serialized S/F films of the 30s. Childish dialog aside, they aren't for children.

We hold these films dear due to what they meant to us in 1977 and 1980. They're not great films, and don't have the depth of Trek at its best.

Disagree. The best part of Star Wars is seeing it when you're a kid. What makes them dear to us is we did see them when we were kids. If you make movies kids won't/can't/shouldn't see, it shouldn't be called Star Wars. Just my O.

Doc Hexnihilo wrote:After the last three turds Lucas dropped in the Star Wars punch bowl, I wouldn't see another Star Wars movie in theaters with free tickets. In fact I've basically tuned the whole thing out.

make it the last 4 and I'd agree entirely ...

just finished watching Avatar the Last Airbender with my son and was blown away as to how enjoyable a serialised kid's cartoon could be; it was everything that Star Wars was to me as a kid but with genuine character development, pathos and humour. And the action showed some serious imagination and was brilliantly choreographed.

watching mass-marketing in effect is like watching Obi-Wan baffle dim-witted Stormtroopers with a wave of his hand ..

Cail wrote:"Pandering to children" is exactly why no one likes RotJ. SW and TESB are full-on adult films which give a large nod to the serialized S/F films of the 30s. Childish dialog aside, they aren't for children.

We hold these films dear due to what they meant to us in 1977 and 1980. They're not great films, and don't have the depth of Trek at its best.

Tend to agree, though I might put TESB in the "great" category. Tons of dark humor in that one, adult-scale character development, and some genuine surprises at the time.

It's also interesting to think about Harrison Ford's assertion that the key mistake in the first three films was not killing off Solo in TESB. I have to say, I agree.

wayfriend wrote:The best part of Star Wars is seeing it when you're a kid. What makes them dear to us is we did see them when we were kids.

Youngling. Even for SW:ANH, some of us were adults when the movies came out...and I don't think I missed the best part.

Savor Dam wrote:

wayfriend wrote:The best part of Star Wars is seeing it when you're a kid. What makes them dear to us is we did see them when we were kids.

Youngling. Even for SW:ANH, some of us were adults when the movies came out...and I don't think I missed the best part.

Touche. Star Wars isn't -just- for kids. But a lot of kids' lives were changed by it.

+JMJ+

wayfriend wrote:

Savor Dam wrote:

wayfriend wrote:The best part of Star Wars is seeing it when you're a kid. What makes them dear to us is we did see them when we were kids.

Youngling. Even for SW:ANH, some of us were adults when the movies came out...and I don't think I missed the best part.

Touche. Star Wars isn't -just- for kids. But a lot of kids' lives were changed by it.

+1

The difference between childish and childlike.

Doc Hexnihilo wrote:

Cail wrote:"Pandering to children" is exactly why no one likes RotJ. SW and TESB are full-on adult films which give a large nod to the serialized S/F films of the 30s. Childish dialog aside, they aren't for children.

We hold these films dear due to what they meant to us in 1977 and 1980. They're not great films, and don't have the depth of Trek at its best.

Tend to agree, though I might put TESB in the "great" category. Tons of dark humor in that one, adult-scale character development, and some genuine surprises at the time.

It's also interesting to think about Harrison Ford's assertion that the key mistake in the first three films was not killing off Solo in TESB. I have to say, I agree.

TESB is a great movie, with the qualification that it's only great if you're familiar with the SW universe.

And as much as I dislike Ford, he's absolutely right.

Wayfriend, you're right too. There's no doubt that SW was a complete game-changer for adults and children alike.

The greatest children's movies are also enjoyable for adults to watch (like Toy Story), but these are still clearly children's movies. And then there are great "adult" movies that kids might enjoy, too. You could put the Star Trek movies in this category. (Heck, I liked First Blood as a kid, an that's definitely not a kids' movie.) But what's great about the Star Wars movies is that they are truly trans-generational. Kids and adults seem to like them equally, and it's hard to pin down exactly which group is their target audience. Hell, kids and adults even buy the toys. Yes, I have some.

I'm excited about this movie. I don't think the prequel trilogy should be any gauge for expectations whatsoever. With Lucas out of the picture, why would it?

Going back to the well is rarely successful. Abrams doesn't have a good track record. The source material is sketchy.

If they can come up with a good story, and if the script is strong, and if the actors can carry their roles, and if the direction is taut, and if it finds its tone somewhere between SW and TESB, then maybe its got a shot. But the odds aren't good.

Zarathustra wrote:The greatest children's movies are also enjoyable for adults to watch (like Toy Story), but these are still clearly children's movies. And then there are great "adult" movies that kids might enjoy, too. You could put the Star Trek movies in this category. (Heck, I liked First Blood as a kid, an that's definitely not a kids' movie.) But what's great about the Star Wars movies is that they are truly trans-generational. Kids and adults seem to like them equally, and it's hard to pin down exactly which group is their target audience. Hell, kids and adults even buy the toys. Yes, I have some.

I'm excited about this movie. I don't think the prequel trilogy should be any gauge for expectations whatsoever. With Lucas out of the picture, why would it?

Because he ruined the story and characters.

Cail wrote:Going back to the well is rarely successful. Abrams doesn't have a good track record. The source material is sketchy.

If they can come up with a good story, and if the script is strong, and if the actors can carry their roles, and if the direction is taut, and if it finds its tone somewhere between SW and TESB, then maybe its got a shot. But the odds aren't good.

I just don't see where else they can go without either boring us or repeating themselves. But then again I'm past caring about the SW universe, maybe it will turn out to be an interesting movie anyway.

Someone - might have been Wil Wheaton, might have been Bill Mumy - re-edited the prequels into one 2-1/2 hour film. Got rid of Jar-Jar and the ridiculous explanation of The Force, as well as a lot of the booring parliamentary procedure stuff. I'd pay to see that, as that makes a whole lot more sense than 3 whole movies to go from little Annie to Darth. I think a lot of the issues everyone has with the Prequels would disappear with a taut, single film.

And I suspect that's going to be an issue with these next three. There isn't much depth to the ST universe, and not a lot of compelling stories to be told, especially since the characters we care about are all geriatric.

And given how shockinly silly and derivative the two Abrams Trek films were.....

You guys can be pretty weird sometimes. Your sounding like a bunch of cry-babys for not getting your own way. Blaming Lucas for a badly told story is ... ridiculous. The second trilogy was far superior to the original three a hundred-fold.
Let's face it guys, you've grown out of Star Wars. Get over it.

Zarathustra has it right. These films are Toy Stories, or, sci-fi toys brought to life on the big screen.
May I make a suggestion! Don't waste your money on a cinema ticket. Instead, donate the cash to the RSPCA.

Viz, I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that there are three categories: 1) kids movies that adults happen to enjoy (e.g. Toy Story), 2) "adult" movies that kids also enjoy (e.g. Star Trek), and 3) trans-generational movies that target no specific audience, which all ages seem to enjoy.

I think SW fits into this final category.

Cail, I have to disagree on Abrams's track record. I thought the ST movies were a success. The "derivative" criticism is odd, given that this is the whole point, when rebooting a known franchise. Of course it's going to be derivative, otherwise it wouldn't fit within the established universe. The real challenge for Abrams was how to make it "new" while still deriving the context, characters, and larger story arcs from the known source material. I think he did that admirably with the time traveling plotline of the first film.

Doc, I don't disagree that Lucas ruined the stories and characters. But this is a movie with new stories and new characters. As for the old characters, they have enough narrative distance from the original trilogy to make their stories interesting, and far, far more distance from the prequel trilogy. I think this has to potential to correct all the missteps of the past.