Kevin's Watch

Feel free to believe what you want about Christians Z. I don't have to justify my belief to you or anyone else. Its just your opinion. For most things you are very balanced in opinion. But for Religion, especially Christianity, you have shown yourself to be extremely motivated to stamp it out. That's fine. I've been here long enough to know your story on Religion and Atheism so I get why you are so adamant in your opposition to Religion. I even remember a thread where you were really ticked off at someone saying they would pray for you. So, I will pray for you.

Zarathustra wrote:SB, so you are proud of the OT Bible verses that say it's ok to own slaves and stone homosexuals? Those aren't a source of embarrassment? Why doesn't your church follow these Biblical teachings anymore if it hasn't been shamed into modernizing itself?

That's what I mean about being cowed: Christians no longer follow their own holy book. If they did, they'd be as bad as Muslims.

I know that Christians justify this by saying that Jesus represents a "new covenant" and that the OT doesn't have to be followed anymore, but that's just a cop-out. At one time the Christian god told his people they can own other humans as property. That's bad enough on its own, that your god thinks so little of human beings that they can be property. But Jesus has nothing to do with correcting that. There was never any explicit rescinding of that principle in the NT. If there had been, "good" Christians wouldn't have been owning slaves in every Christian country for about 1800 years after Jesus. The NT isn't what changed. Society did. And Christianity now pretends it was their idea to give up slavery all along, because of the New Testament.

That's bullshit.

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

RR, If your belief system compels you to find silver linings in things that are unambiguously evil, like slavery, that should be a big red flag that something is wrong with your beliefs. It doesn't matter how nice you treat your slaves, you are evil if you treat people as property or in any way condone it.

Of course I'm anti-religion. I've declared it with every single post I've made. That's what my signature means. We're on a fansite for an author who is anti-religion! It shouldn't be all that surprising. I 'm surprised Donaldson has Christian fans.

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me. I think it's a little condescending, but otherwise harmless. I think people sometimes use it as a passive-aggressive insult, like, 'you're such a shitty person you need someone to pray for you.' But if if makes you feel better to pretend that talking to yourself can accomplish something, it can't hurt me. I think the idea of prayer is a little nuts. Under any other circumstances if someone claimed they were talking to someone in their head, they'd be locked up. But that's what religion does, it legitimizes things that we'd ordinarily recognize as insane and/or ludicrous under normal conditions. It mainstreams crazy stuff so that its practitioners don't even think it's weird. And this goes for literally ANYTHING, even handling deadly snakes or believing that bread can turn into the flesh of Jesus.

Or make excuses for slavery.

Zarathustra wrote:
SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me.

Hmm I tried to go into the search engine and find the thread I was talking about but its just too much data for me to parse quickly. My apologies to you if I'm wrong. Heck maybe it was another site and another person entirely. At some point all the sites I have debated on tend to run together.

SoulBiter wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:
SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me.

Hmm I tried to go into the search engine and find the thread I was talking about but its just too much data for me to parse quickly. My apologies to you if I'm wrong. Heck maybe it was another site and another person entirely. At some point all the sites I have debated on tend to run together.

I remember that. Can't remember who said it, might have been 'Weez, could have been me. You really went off the deep end over it.

Zarathustra wrote:

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

RR, If your belief system compels you to find silver linings in things that are unambiguously evil, like slavery, that should be a big red flag that something is wrong with your beliefs. It doesn't matter how nice you treat your slaves, you are evil if you treat people as property or in any way condone it.

Of course I'm anti-religion. I've declared it with every single post I've made. That's what my signature means. We're on a fansite for an author who is anti-religion! It shouldn't be all that surprising. I 'm surprised Donaldson has Christian fans.

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me. I think it's a little condescending, but otherwise harmless. I think people sometimes use it as a passive-aggressive insult, like, 'you're such a shitty person you need someone to pray for you.' But if if makes you feel better to pretend that talking to yourself can accomplish something, it can't hurt me. I think the idea of prayer is a little nuts. Under any other circumstances if someone claimed they were talking to someone in their head, they'd be locked up. But that's what religion does, it legitimizes things that we'd ordinarily recognize as insane and/or ludicrous under normal conditions. It mainstreams crazy stuff so that its practitioners don't even think it's weird. And this goes for literally ANYTHING, even handling deadly snakes or believing that bread can turn into the flesh of Jesus.

Or make excuses for slavery.

I don't remember any religion, or philosophy up until a couple of centuries ago that had any problem with Slavery, wife beating, child abuse, war: as we define such things today

The slavery you are thinking of is what you've see with africans as the slaves being severly abuse during colonial times and up until slavery as an institution in the west was abolished.

The slavery mentioned in the Bible was much more like what the Romans practiced, where a slave was allowed wages and could actually purchase their freedom.

Regardless, EVIL, as you define it, is defined by culture. Killing your enemies and eating thier heart was not considered an act of evil by various tribesmen. Or for that matter, killing the injured after a battle because they don't have the medical skill to help and don't believe in taking prisoners was not considered evil, it was considered an act of mercy.

What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

Exactly FF well said

Surprising that a god that is accredited to be .. unchangeable .. and of course all knowing, all powerful, indeed a perfect being .. would have had the need to change at all. The bible is full of women treated as possessions that a father could give to a raging mob to defile through rape, women who experience loss were deemed procreative value to surviving siblings, a god that is credited with entering into a wager with the devil which led to the conducting of a social experiment to see how much suffering one human could bear... not such a great guy or gal ..

The god of the Old Testament reigned over an arguably brutal regime. Where his followers were commanded to slaughter men, women and children and any of their domesticated animals for good measure. The New Testament is lauded as embracing a new covenant that replaced the mosaic law .. yet much bias from the Old Testament is still used today .. to justify hate crimes as well as discriminatory attitudes against LGBT people, traditional roles for women, abuse of children, sexism has long thrived in religious institutions, racism and and other despicable traits.

There are numerous good things that can be derived from religious teachings but underlying them is a lot of unpleasantness.

Weve had a spate of religious leaders facing charges of abuse, sexual assault of children and adults.. religious leaders who have used their positions of power and trust to slake sexual appetite and reek abuses among their congregations.

These abuses of power are not as rare as some might believe. And its not only one religion .. such crimes are common among all religions.

I read today that in Cornwall the education board has introduced Paganism as part of their curriculum.. why not, its a religion. Christians have been up in arms about it ... .. its a religion .. and whats note its part of their heritage.

I think theyd be better served redefine Religious Education to Mythologies Education .. its a thought

Fist and Faith wrote:What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

Yes, well put.

We all became better people, not just the Christians. Put a modern human into those times and he'd likely be just as bad. Our societies remade us. We have the luxury now of not being brutal because our lives are so easy. When you are desperate, you are more open to brutality.

Freedom of thought, speech, movement, and trade not only made us more prosperous but also more virtuous. Rather than casting us into an amoral chaos, breaking the shackles of dogma did the opposite. Humans in Western societies have more protections, rights, freedom, tolerance, and justice than any time in human history. We have not only made secular society more virtuous, but we've also cleaned up most of the barbarism of Christianity, too.

Surely this is one of the deepest ironies of history. Not only is God unnecessary to achieving a virtuous society, but society's move away from God is what ended up pulling Christianity out of the Dark Ages into a more virtuous stance.

None of us can take the credit for it. It's a new set of memes that have altered our firmware. We all have a new operating system, a baseline worldview that now includes shooting ourselves in spaceships to touch heavenly bodies. Stepping onto the moon was a giant leap for mankind, but it was also mucking about in moondust. The moon is not a heavenly light, it's a pile of rock as dark as charcoal. We've transcended our folly with a mundane reality.

Transcendence in the mundane. That's reality. That's the 'miracle.'

Happy Easter to you all!!!!

Especially V and Z!

Fist and Faith wrote:Especially V and Z!

Thanks!
I was considering celebrating this special April Fool's Easter by inserting a classic Jesus into Monty Python, with JC saying "I'm not dead yet!"

And there's a pretty funny joke [to me anyway---]...
To do it justice requires a very long story set-up, but I'll jump to the punchline, which is...
"So Jesus died..."
"Yes, yes...good so far..."
"And three days later he rose up..."
"Right!. Great..."
"And he comes out of his tomb....And if he sees his shadow...

Good lord! The Python idea is brilliant!

+JMJ+

SoulBiter wrote:Happy Easter to you all!!!!

He is risen! Alleluia!

Happy Life of Brian Day to all .. and to all a good night

Happy Easter
Happy Passover
Happy Eostre

Zarathustra wrote: We all became better people, not just the Christians. Put a modern human into those times and he'd likely be just as bad. Our societies remade us. We have the luxury now of not being brutal because our lives are so easy. When you are desperate, you are more open to brutality.

Freedom of thought, speech, movement, and trade not only made us more prosperous but also more virtuous. Rather than casting us into an amoral chaos, breaking the shackles of dogma did the opposite. Humans in Western societies have more protections, rights, freedom, tolerance, and justice than any time in human history. We have not only made secular society more virtuous, but we've also cleaned up most of the barbarism of Christianity, too.

Surely this is one of the deepest ironies of history. Not only is God unnecessary to achieving a virtuous society, but society's move away from God is what ended up pulling Christianity out of the Dark Ages into a more virtuous stance.

None of us can take the credit for it. It's a new set of memes that have altered our firmware. We all have a new operating system, a baseline worldview that now includes shooting ourselves in spaceships to touch heavenly bodies. Stepping onto the moon was a giant leap for mankind, but it was also mucking about in moondust. The moon is not a heavenly light, it's a pile of rock as dark as charcoal. We've transcended our folly with a mundane reality.

Transcendence in the mundane. That's reality. That's the 'miracle.'

Potent summation .. kudos .. a really enjoyable read.

He has indeed risen!!!!

Yay for him

Zarathustra wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

Yes, well put.

We all became better people, not just the Christians. Put a modern human into those times and he'd likely be just as bad. Our societies remade us. We have the luxury now of not being brutal because our lives are so easy. When you are desperate, you are more open to brutality.

Freedom of thought, speech, movement, and trade not only made us more prosperous but also more virtuous. Rather than casting us into an amoral chaos, breaking the shackles of dogma did the opposite. Humans in Western societies have more protections, rights, freedom, tolerance, and justice than any time in human history. We have not only made secular society more virtuous, but we've also cleaned up most of the barbarism of Christianity, too.

Surely this is one of the deepest ironies of history. Not only is God unnecessary to achieving a virtuous society, but society's move away from God is what ended up pulling Christianity out of the Dark Ages into a more virtuous stance.

None of us can take the credit for it. It's a new set of memes that have altered our firmware. We all have a new operating system, a baseline worldview that now includes shooting ourselves in spaceships to touch heavenly bodies. Stepping onto the moon was a giant leap for mankind, but it was also mucking about in moondust. The moon is not a heavenly light, it's a pile of rock as dark as charcoal. We've transcended our folly with a mundane reality.

Transcendence in the mundane. That's reality. That's the 'miracle.'

Think you have that backasswards. It was the Church that helped pull the world out of barbarism. It was the Church who built universities and taught philosphy and science.

Catholic Church and science


.....It has been prolific in the foundation of schools, universities and hospitals, and many clergy have been active in the sciences. Historians of science such as Pierre Duhem credit medieval Catholic mathematicians and philosophers such as John Buridan, Nicole Oresme, and Roger Bacon as the founders of modern science.[1] Duhem found "the mechanics and physics, of which modern times are justifiably proud, to proceed by an uninterrupted series of scarcely perceptible improvements from doctrines professed in the heart of the medieval schools."

OTOH, various political philosophies such as Communism, which profess no God, or Nazism which only paid lip service at best to religion, killed more people than all the religious war in all of human history combined.

The Enlightenment had nothing to do with Communism and Nazism. Organized religion may have encouraged scholarship, but not a revolution in thought that was antithetical to dogma.