Kevin's Watch

You referring to the flying pink elephants (boy, this is awkward)?

Yes, the pink elephants.

But, now that you mention it......


(just kidding)

Lord Foul wrote:Some people are comfortable with black and white.

Zeph, could you clarify your "if you believe it, it's a fact" statement?

Sure. Everything you ever hear is someone else's opinion, until you accept it as the truth and then it's a fact.


Someone says, telephones are intrusive machines. You disagree. You believe them to be instruments that bring people closer together. Therefore telephones are intrusive machines is simply an opinion to you.

Someone says, telephone poles & streets are the slow rape of the land. You believe them to be great enablers of communication and high speed transportation. Rape is an opinion to you on the matter.

In 2014, Someone says, web telephones (voIP) are intrusive machines raping the internet. You don't exactly agree, but you change it a little bit & accept that voIP will probably be the end of vacations without the office calling and web-cameras make it worse, plus the amount of people using voIP is clogging the net because of all the viruses that the hackers bounce along piggy-backed on the calls. Or whatever you might think, but at any rate you agree that webphones are intrusive and clogging the net. So this is now a fact to you. You thought about it. You agree with it. It's no longer an opinion. Well, that is, until you tell someone else your fact, because to them it's merely another opinion.

I see what you mean now, methinks. It's a fact, insofar as it's a fact of the individual person's own little universe.

Like I said, a universe without any concept of proof is entirely relativistic. Sure, that's how the universe is. Everything is about probability. There are no laws of physics that say all the air in a room can't suddenly shift into a corner or that you couldn't walk right through a brick wall if all your atoms were aligned just right. The probability of these events are very slight, however, and that's how the human mind works. It discerns patterns out of chaos. There's a chance that the patterns could only be illusory, but more often than not, it is what we consider fact. Science is very good at finding patterns (and as Foul has already stated, that's what science does. it tests a hypothesis for a predictable and verifiable outcome).

dANdeLION wrote:

caamora wrote:A duck!

YES!!!

And ducks are made of wood, right?

Yes, and so are witches!

Lord Foul wrote:I see what you mean now, methinks. It's a fact, insofar as it's a fact of the individual person's own little universe.

Yeah. But it's important to remember that that's how things truly are. God IS a fact in Zeph's and Furls Fire's lives. An absolute fact. The fact that they might not agree exactly on God's nature/commandments/desires isn't even important. Even if, in fact, there isn't any God at all, God is still a fact of their lives. The biggest fact, in fact. umm... heh

That's what I meant.

Fist and Faith wrote:Yeah. But it's important to remember that that's how things truly are. God IS a fact in Zeph's and Furls Fire's lives. An absolute fact. The fact that they might not agree exactly on God's nature/commandments/desires isn't even important. Even if, in fact, there isn't any God at all, God is still a fact of their lives. The biggest fact, in fact. umm... heh

It's true your talking about... Not fact. They consider it truth... Do you know what a fact is? If you do... Then you'd know that it is only truth that God exists to them. Now I want some pie... Leave me alone.

No, though I understand what you mean, and agree to certain applications of that principle, even facts are more subjective than you realize. People argue quite passionately about things like the nature of light, infinity, and any number of other things that can be studied and tested scientifically and mathematically. They all examine the evidence, and decide what the facts are. Two people witnessing an auto accident will tell you the facts are quite different, because of their pov, their mindset going into it, and other factors.

Same with God. In Furls Fire's life, God is a fact.

Fist wrote:Same with God. In Furls Fire's life, God is a fact.

Not only is He fact, my dear friend, He is the way of my life. All I do, all I am comes from having Him in my heart. There is no other way for me to be.

I need no "proof", the affirmation that He exists lives within me, all around me. My friends, my family, my life... all glorious gifts from the Father. I can see it in no other way.

Call that what you will, fact, truth, belief, blind faith, idiocy, lunacy, insanity...etc. I just call it my life. My way.

I call it wonderful.

I call it pie

Lord Foul wrote:I call it wonderful.

Hugs to you, LF

Darth Revan wrote:I call it pie

Well, since pie is a very good thing (even more so when you are in your last trimester and craving everything you see), then hugs to you too Darth.

Fist said:

Yeah. But it's important to remember that that's how things truly are. God IS a fact in Zeph's and Furls Fire's lives. An absolute fact. The fact that they might not agree exactly on God's nature/commandments/desires isn't even important. Even if, in fact, there isn't any God at all, God is still a fact of their lives. The biggest fact, in fact. umm... heh

Nicely stated, Fist.

You could add my name to that too, I suppose.

Fist and Faith wrote:No, though I understand what you mean, and agree to certain applications of that principle, even facts are more subjective than you realize. People argue quite passionately about things like the nature of light, infinity, and any number of other things that can be studied and tested scientifically and mathematically. They all examine the evidence, and decide what the facts are. Two people witnessing an auto accident will tell you the facts are quite different, because of their pov, their mindset going into it, and other factors.

Same with God. In Furls Fire's life, God is a fact.

I think that is a very open minded rationale to reconciling the disparity of whether or whether not God exists.

However, having said that its not just a subjective assessment. It cant be .. Either there is a God or there just isnt. Either there is an after life or there just isnt. Either the world is flat or it just isnt.

Just because say Furls and Foul believed the world flat because it accorded with their unique world view .. doesnt make it fact.

Fact and Truth are more than subjective measures .. they must be. Is it a fact that the world is flat?? Is it true that the world is flat???

My genuine and honest heart felt belief in the world being flat .. does it make the world flat???

Nope I am afraid it doesnt. My genuine belief in the world being round?? does this make it a fact?? Nope .. The world is round regardless of my subjective belief .. whether based in ignorance or education.

It behooves all humankind to discover what is fact and what is truth .. Knowledge is liberation .. knowledge is freedom .. The knowledge of the existence of God is also liberating.

I just know I will be back to read your views on this radical proposition :P

Furls Fire wrote:

Fist wrote:Same with God. In Furls Fire's life, God is a fact.

Not only is He fact, my dear friend, He is the way of my life. All I do, all I am comes from having Him in my heart. There is no other way for me to be.

I need no "proof", the affirmation that He exists lives within me, all around me. My friends, my family, my life... all glorious gifts from the Father. I can see it in no other way.

Call that what you will, fact, truth, belief, blind faith, idiocy, lunacy, insanity...etc. I just call it my life. My way.

Love you, Furls...I'm with you (and with Him) on that...

Skyweir wrote:However, having said that its not just a subjective assessment. It cant be .. Either there is a God or there just isnt. Either there is an after life or there just isnt. Either the world is flat or it just isnt.

I'm not sure that I agree here. I think that there is a fundamental difference between saying that the fact that the earth is round is independant of belief, and saying that the same is true of God.

The roundness of the earth is open to independant verification. The same is true of all "facts". In other words, a fact is only a fact if everybody who tests it comes to the same conclusion.

Everything else is subjective, or, if you prefer, a matter of opinion.

Faith, by it's very nature, defies facts, or logic, or any other intellectual process. If God were to appear to the world and say "Look, the christians have been right all along" it would effectively deny faith. You wouldn't have to believe it anymore, you'd KNOW.

I have no trouble positing that God may exist for Furls, and all other who believe in him. The very existence of their belief renders this possible. However, this is not to say that he exists for me.

Why can't we have a world where the people who believe can have their afterlife, and those who don't can have their oblivion? Or whatever outcome they prefer? This is one of the things I dislike about christianity, or any organised religion for that matter-- the requirement for absolutes.

The stance, in essence, that "We are right, so by definition, you all must be wrong". (Not that I'm accusing anyone here of that.)

I prefer situations where everybody may be right. And to be perfectly honest, if the christians are right, I know where I'd rather be.

Take it Easy (I'll save some seats by the fire for the like-minded )
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