Lowering the age of consent

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I certainly agree with that. Attempts to be your childs friend, instead of their parent, must be doomed to failure, both in concept, and "behaviourally".

If you portray yourself as only a friend, any attempt to impose rules/discipline etc. will not only cost their trust, but will be less effective.

I'm not 100% sure, but I assume we have similar law, making parents responsible for their children. But, having been a child, I know the extent to which I made my own choices, regardless of my parents wishes.

However, in terms of allowing children to dress certain ways, I fully agree. Especially at young ages, the parents should never be permitting it. And then, as we've said, they wonder what happened that their child became pregnant etc.

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[dennisrwood]

in America parents are responsible for their kids up to a point. you don't do time if your kid caps someone. you don't pay support if your boy goes and knocks up some girl. and the courts have allowed the parents not to be notified if their minor girl has an abortion. but you can be held liable for money owed if your kid commits a crime. or you can sign the child over to the state for punishment.

[ChoChiyo]

When I was twelve, I thought boys were a source of terminally infectious COOTIES! (Wait...I still think that!)

Ha ha.

Seriously--at 12, I would have been about as ready to have sex as I am to walk on the ceiling now.

I think education and instilling values (which has to start in the cradle, guys) are the key to everything.

Sadly, 12-year-olds and even younger will continue having sex. I think our job is to try to protect them from predators as much as possible.

It used to be said that boys used love to get sex and girls used sex to get love.

Myself, I think both boys and girls want to be loved so much that they're willing to do almost anything for it.

And of course, the hormonally induced sex drive is jump started quite young these days. I know many young girls who started their menstrual cycles at ten. I was only eleven myself when that happened!

Disgusting.

Sigh.

I do know that our society can't use sexuality to sell everything from applesauce to automobiles and then act all shocked and horrified when they discover twelve year olds groping each other under the bleachers!

That whole hullabaloo over that Jackson chick's "wardrobe malfunction" made me laugh out loud. This, from the people who had proudly presented the Swedish Bikini Team for YEARS--and they showed a lot more flesh than Janet did--only thing they didn't show was the nipple.

Big whoop.

I found it quite hypocritical. Not that I have any great love for Janet Jackson.

[Avatar]

I do know that our society can't use sexuality to sell everything from applesauce to automobiles and then act all shocked and horrified when they discover twelve year olds groping each other under the bleachers!

Exactly. I think the "marketing machine" is at least partly responsible for a lot of "incipent" problems in all our societies. It frightens me to see what "Media-Victims" people can become.

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[Plissken]

I do know that our society can't use sexuality to sell everything from applesauce to automobiles and then act all shocked and horrified when they discover twelve year olds groping each other under the bleachers!

Exactly. I think the "marketing machine" is at least partly responsible for a lot of "incipent" problems in all our societies. It frightens me to see what "Media-Victims" people can become.

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I don't buy it. I think that children have always been sexual creatures, and that it is the fault of parents - not media - if these urges are not reigned in until they can be expressed in a healthy manner.

Anyone who has any doubts about the existence child sexuality should go re-read "Peter Pan" and "Alice in Wonderland" for subtext. (Hell, a straight reading of "Romeo and Juliet" should suffice. Those kids were 13 and 14.)

Parents are just dropping the ball, and blaming MTV and advertising won't help. If anything, the industrialized world has provided parents with a self deluding, false sense of sanitization regarding what children feel, and see regarding sex.

After all, "Mummy, what on earth is that mean ol' bull doing to Bessie?" is a much more challenging question for a parent to answer than, "Hey, Mom! What's a wardrobe malfunction?"

[dennisrwood]

plissken:
any subtext in "Alice In Wonderland" was put in there by Dodgson. his unhealthy lust for Alice provides the creepy elements. Ailce only acts as Charles writes her...

[Plissken]

plissken:
any subtext in "Alice In Wonderland" was put in there by Dodgson. his unhealthy lust for Alice provides the creepy elements. Ailce only acts as Charles writes her...

The idea that CD was an "unhealthy" man, with "creepy lusts" for little girls has been proven unfounded. Regardless, do you not remember your own childhood? I'm willing to bet that you wanted to "play doctor" with the kid next door in a pretty powerful way, whether there was a TV in your house or not.

[ZefaLefeLaH]

I played doctor with my sister.

[Plissken]

That explains alot.

[dennisrwood]

Zef: ummm, confirms things either way.

and no i did not want to play doctor at a young age, cowboys and indians.
i don't see the need to hypersexualize little children. our society runs on sex, but it wasn't always so oppressive.

[Avatar]

I agree here. Although certainly children come into sexuality on their own, and inevitably, I really think that the diet of sex-driven information that they are exposed to has a major impact.

Admittedly, the parents are to blame here too in a sense. Seeing 6yr old "beauty contestants" dancing to Brittany Spears is nauseating.

Sex has become an integral part of modern society, and where it's not overt, it's often implied.

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[Plissken]

I agree here. Although certainly children come into sexuality on their own, and inevitably, I really think that the diet of sex-driven information that they are exposed to has a major impact.

Admittedly, the parents are to blame here too in a sense. Seeing 6yr old "beauty contestants" dancing to Brittany Spears is nauseating.

Sex has become an integral part of modern society, and where it's not overt, it's often implied.

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Sex, both overt and implied, is an integral part of ALL societies, since the beginning of time. Childrens internal drives expose them to sexual feelings and thoughts with or without media exposure.

It is the parents responsibility to both limit that exposure (if I hear one more parent whining about how they can't control what their kids watch -or wear- I may have to scream), and to provide their children with proper social and moral frameworks in which to deal with their own drives.

If parents are unwilling or inadequate to either of those tasks, no amount of whining, censorship, or "abstinence education" is going to help much.

[dennisrwood]

but remember, we are raising parents to abdicate responsibility. let the schools teach them right and...more right. let a court decide what medical procedures our daughters need to have consent for. let the tv teach them sexuality and violence. don't keep them indoors at night. let them dress how they want. don't check their computer activities. have no idea who their friends are. let a psychologist decide what meds to put them on. stay ignorant and hope for the best. let the secular culture deride religion and wonder what happens to their morals...

[Avatar]

Sex, both overt and implied, is an integral part of ALL societies, since the beginning of time. Childrens internal drives expose them to sexual feelings and thoughts with or without media exposure.

It is the parents responsibility to both limit that exposure (if I hear one more parent whining about how they can't control what their kids watch -or wear- I may have to scream), and to provide their children with proper social and moral frameworks in which to deal with their own drives.

If parents are unwilling or inadequate to either of those tasks, no amount of whining, censorship, or "abstinence education" is going to help much.

Very true, both in the sense that it has always been a part of society, albeit one which, for a long time, society itself tried to suppress, and in the sense that it is the responsibility of the parent to limit and control that sort of access.

Certainly "censoring" it is not the answer in itslef, and it's definitley one that I would advocate. Ultimately, responsibility is the only answer at perhaps any level.

And in a way, I agree with dennisrwood here too. We're allowing too much abdication of responsibility. No school or government can assume that role. It is up to the parent.

Although. I must say that I don't necessarily think that morality must have something to do with religion. There are perfectly valid, "secular" basis' for morality as well.

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[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I don't know if I'm the youngest person here, but at 21 I might be, and I'm not sure if y'all understand just how saturated with sex the media is....

What I think is going on here, is that advertising is discovering that you can tap into the sexual feelings of the young. This is inevitable, as eventually the marketing industry will find every possible avenue of advertising.. but anyway, what's happening is that the market is acknowledging the sexual feelings of the young, and that's causing young people to acknowledge them, and the only people that aren't acknowledging them are the parents. The parents are either ignoring them or supressing them, and trying to supress them is a losing battle, especially because it comes at a time when children are more prone to rebel... I think there needs to be a serious change in our sex ed process, and Abstinence is not the direction to go in. Largely because it will be ignored. In the Consumer society we live in, anyone is hard pressed to overcome media images, myself included.

[Cail]

I agree with you to a point Jem. Why isn't abstinence the way to go? Granted, we need to accept reality, and educate for the worst case, but (as a parent) I would certainly hope that my daughter stays abstinate as long as possible (at least until I die... ), and I would expect that abstinance would be the preferred teaching at school. Something along the lines of, "You really should wait, but if you don't, here's what you need to know". Does that sound reasonable? I don't think it's in anyone's best interests for 12 year olds to be sexually active.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I see where you're coming from. Believe me, I see where you're coming from. I just don't think it's realistic. Someone on here said that sex was no longer the mystery that it was, but that's not accurate. It is even MORE mysterious, if only because the impression that kids are getting is so innaccurate. You are judged based on how sexy your partner is, what you can 'get'. What you can do, how good you are in bed, how big is your X, what's your stance... endless and endless factors come into play.
Education will not counteract pop culture. It simply doesn't have the weight of social acceptance behind it.

[Cail]

You know Jem, I have come near to tears with several of your posts, I think this one is about the closest. I shudder to think what your life has been like. I've read your posts about the screwed-up things you've shared, but I suspect there's a lot more. You're 21. The world is your oyster, yet you are so damn cynical. Life ain't that bad.

I went through a lot of the garbage you've discussed (and a lot worse too, I think), and I spent my 20s being pissed-off, angry, afraid, and full of hatred. It was a waste of time.

Your prior post is a perfect example. You make the situation sound hopeless, so why should we bother trying. I refuse to believe that that is the case (even though you're a lot closer to the age we're discussing).

I'm sorry if I sound preachy. It sounds like you're going down a tough road. I've been up and down tough roads, and I made it through all right. I hope you can too without wasting 10 years on it like I did.

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If there is one thing that we all should be familiar with, it's the idea that it doesn't matter whether or not the situation is hopeless. What matters is that we try.

I think Jem makes a good point there. Education will not easily match, or counter, the massive weight of popular culture. But it is the only tool that we have in attempting to teach people anything. It may be an insufficeint answer, but what other answer do we have?

It is, finally, up to each and every one of us to teach by example, to back our opinions with our actions, and hope that the important stuff gets through.

Cail, you may see those ten years as a waste, but they are an integral part of what makes you the person that you are today.

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[duchess of malfi]

If there is one thing that we all should be familiar with, it's the idea that it doesn't matter whether or not the situation is hopeless. What matters is that we try.

******

Cail, you may see those ten years as a waste, but they are an integral part of what makes you the person that you are today.

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I agree with both parts I quoted here. What matters (no matter what Yoda says) is the trying. If you don't try you will never know whether or not something was actually hopeless...and sometimes you just might succeed.

And Cail, if you came out of those ten years having learned something about yourself, and about the world around you and the people in it, than they could never be described as a waste!!!