Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:53 am**

duchess of malfi wrote:I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...

I agree Duchess. I think we all are altruistic to a degree.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:10 am**

duchess of malfi wrote:I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...

Like the altruistic Firemen you were talking about?

Anyone who thinks altruism does exist in humans has a very positive outlook on life probably... and are blinded by that...

A Gunslinger wrote:
duchess of malfi wrote:I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...

I agree Duchess. I think we all are altruistic to a degree.

Yeah, I think you're completely right... we're all altruistic to a degree...
but in that selfish, self centered kinda way...

All of us Slinger? Do you really think all of us a altruistic to a degree? So, Hitler was altruistic in his own way all well then?

And "to a degree," is completely wrong. You are either altruistic, or you are not. There is no half way when it comes to this Gunslinger.

I hope none of you take offence at the fact I'm disagreeing with you... but this is a discussion after all.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:32 am**

I think it all comes down to how we are defining altruism.

If we mean that people like to help others, then yes we are.

If we mean that people only help others based on what we can get from it, then it depends on the definition of the reward.

I think that anybody who helps people without the expectation of a tangible reward is altruistic.

It doesn't affect your altruism if you merely get a good feeling from helping others, and even if you perform that help because it makes you feel good, thats not the same to me as if you were helping becuase you expect to get something tangible.

When I mentioned selfish motivations, I'm pretty sure I specified that the "feel-good" motive may well be sub-conscious. That certainly doesn't make you the opposite of altruistic.

--Avatar

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:30 am**

I think it does... because you probably wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't that "feel good" factor in it for you.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:03 pm**

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that someone thinks to themselves "I'll help that person becuase it will make me feel good about myself."

The "feel-good" factor may be an inbuilt "program" to encourage us to help others.

As I said, it shouldn't come into play in determining whether or not we are altruistic. It's sort of like nature's reward system. It's automatic.

Yes, the internal motivation may be selfish in that sense, but it's not selfish in terms of "gain", and I think that may make all of the difference.

--A

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:08 pm**

I don't think it makes all the difference. you say it's automatic? So we're all automatic built to be selfish?

That's kind of a sad concept to accept... but yes, I think you're right.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:14 pm**

I think it's more like we automatically feel good if we do something that we percieve to BE good.

It's actual activation may also depend on the environment and stimuli that determine how our brain works.

It's a tough question. And probably no easy answer either way.

People are a lot more complicated than we might like to realise. It's almost impossible to say becuase of A, then Z. We tend to neglect all the rest of the alphabet (interactions) that go into producing any given result.

I'm sure you're familiar with the whole Chaos Theory thing about a butterfly flapping it's wings in South America, and "causing" a hurricane on the other side of the world. That's pretty much how I think the whole thing works. A million tiny variables that interact in ways which we are not equipped to notice.

The mind is just like that...Only more so

--A

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:27 pm**

heh, does anyone think I'm ever so slightly cynical?

3 entries found for cynical.
cyn·i·cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn-kl)
adj.
Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others: a cynical dismissal of the politician's promise to reform the campaign finance system.
Selfishly or callously calculating: showed a cynical disregard for the safety of his troops in his efforts to advance his reputation.
Negative or pessimistic, as from world-weariness: a cynical view of the average voter's intelligence.
Expressing jaded or scornful skepticism or negativity: cynical laughter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cyni·cal·ly adv.
cyni·cal·ness n.

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Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

cynical

Cynic \Cyn"ic\ (s[i^]n"[i^]k), Cynical \Cyn"ic*al\ (-[i^]*kal), a. [L. cynicus of the sect of Cynics, fr. Gr. kyniko`s, prop., dog-like, fr. ky`wn, kyno`s, dog. See Hound.] 1. Having the qualities of a surly dog; snarling; captious; currish.

I hope it is no very cynical asperity not to confess obligations where no benefit has been received. --Johnson.

2. Pertaining to the Dog Star; as, the cynic, or Sothic, year; cynic cycle.

3. Belonging to the sect of philosophers called cynics; having the qualities of a cynic; pertaining to, or resembling, the doctrines of the cynics.

4. Given to sneering at rectitude and the conduct of life by moral principles; disbelieving in the reality of any human purposes which are not suggested or directed by self-interest or self-indulgence; as, a cynical man who scoffs at pretensions of integrity; characterized by such opinions; as, cynical views of human nature.

cynical

adj : believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others [syn: misanthropic, misanthropical]

heh.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:41 pm**

There's nothing wrong with being a cynic, just try and balance it with optimism.

i.e. Cynicism is seeing how the world works, optimism is trusting/hoping/trying to ensure that it'll work better in the future.

--Avatar

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:42 pm**

Avatar wrote:There's nothing wrong with being a cynic, just try and balance it with optimism.

i.e. Cynicism is seeing how the world works, optimism is trusting/hoping/trying to ensure that it'll work better in the future.

--Avatar

Then, by that post, optimism is a false hope. And therefore void.

There's nothing wrong with being a cynic, just try and balance it with optimism.

Then you wouldn't be a cynic!

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:45 pm**

Why false? The way the world works doesn't preclude it from improving does it?

It may not be likely, but we can hope. And even better if we do what we can to make it so.

I'm a cynical optimist.
Or an optimistic cynic.

Take your pick

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:25 pm**

Darth Revan wrote:
duchess of malfi wrote:I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...
Like the altruistic Firemen you were talking about?

Anyone who thinks altruism does exist in humans has a very positive outlook on life probably... and are blinded by that...

A Gunslinger wrote:
duchess of malfi wrote:I think this is simply something that I will never agree with with most of the people here. To me altruism really does exist, and have experienced it many times. It is a fact in my life...
I agree Duchess. I think we all are altruistic to a degree.
Yeah, I think you're completely right... we're all altruistic to a degree...
but in that selfish, self centered kinda way...

All of us Slinger? Do you really think all of us a altruistic to a degree? So, Hitler was altruistic in his own way all well then?

And "to a degree," is completely wrong. You are either altruistic, or you are not. There is no half way when it comes to this Gunslinger.

I hope none of you take offence at the fact I'm disagreeing with you... but this is a discussion after all.

I meant all of us on the watch, Mr. Darth.

Altruism does exist in humans, in fact I'd say most. Now I'm not talkingabout good deed doing. An example of altruism isnt opening the door for a lady. You must give of yourself..a cost must be willingly borne for the good of another.

Yes, there are plenty of selfish people who think that people (active in the community...volunteering) like me are rubes, or that taxes paid for social programs are a waste of THEIR resources. I am not blind to it, and I try not to judge it.

I can only hope that my example will be practiced by my kids, and other kids that observe my actions and commitments. I truly dig making my home and world a better place both through my personal and social sense of responsibility.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:20 pm**

I believe that altruism is present in all and continue to be optimistic--fortunately Darth admited that he was a cynic before his arguement really wore me down and I killed myself.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:24 pm**

I believe Furls is altruistic. What she does she does for other people--people who can't help themselves. Yes, she gets joy out of it, but where does it say that enjoying it lessens the impact of the actual act? Who gives a crap if someone does something wonderful and then gets joy out of it? Oh my god altruism is a lie!:hairs:

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:32 pm**

So, you're saying this topic is moot?

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:55 pm**

Hmm, I think a soldier (with no thoughts of being rewarded with entrance into heaven) who throws themself onto a grenade, in order to save an innocent or the rest of their unit is altruistic. They know they're going to die doing it (or at least lose limbs) but they do it for the good of another. No selfish motivation there, that i can see.

Even Pat (Malone?) the football player who left his football career to volunteer to go fight in Afghanistan and was killed was very altruistic.

Parents who give up their lives or privelleges for their children should also be considered altruistic IMHO.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:01 pm**

danlo wrote:So, you're saying this topic is moot?

On some level, yes, but I think this topic is interesting, if anything. I have my beliefs on what altruism is and isn't, and all I can do is expound them.

Personally, I don't believe in a purely altruistic person, but I do believe in purely altruistic acts. If you go into a burning building to save somebody else, you most likely were NOT thinking "oh boy, I'm doing this for some kind of recognition".

Honestly, how much thought goes into saving a person--during the actual act of it, I mean? I'm not sure, as I've never saved anybody, but I think the thought that goes into risking your life is about the same as drowning:

Lennon wrote:When it gets down to it-- when you're drowning, you don't say 'I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,' you just scream."

Posted: **Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:08 am**

My brother, Stephen.

Altruism personified.

Stephen once carried a homeless man, dying of AIDS, on his back 3 miles to the hospital when he, himself, was very sick at the time.

That is just one example...I could site hundreds, thousands more.

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:24 am**

sindatur wrote:Hmm, I think a soldier (with no thoughts of being rewarded with entrance into heaven) who throws themself onto a grenade, in order to save an innocent or the rest of their unit is altruistic. They know they're going to die doing it (or at least lose limbs) but they do it for the good of another. No selfish motivation there, that i can see.

Even Pat (Malone?) the football player who left his football career to volunteer to go fight in Afghanistan and was killed was very altruistic.

Parents who give up their lives or privelleges for their children should also be considered altruistic IMHO.

No... anyone who sacrifices themselves don't do it unless they think they're lower than the thing they are sacrificing themselves for. They don't do it for altruistic reasons.

Furls Fire wrote:My brother, Stephen.

Altruism personified.

Stephen once carried a homeless man, dying of AIDS, on his back 3 miles to the hospital when he, himself, was very sick at the time.

That is just one example...I could site hundreds, thousands more.

Furls, much as your brother ruled; and you know I don't mean any disrespect here, he was still human... there in lies the flaw into altruism. A human can't be altruistic; it's just that simple.

danlo wrote:I believe that altruism is present in all and continue to be optimistic--fortunately Darth admited that he was a cynic before his arguement really wore me down and I killed myself.

Posted: **Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:35 am**

Darth Revan wrote: No... anyone who sacrifices themselves don't do it unless they think they're lower than the thing they are sacrificing themselves for. They don't do it for altruistic reasons.

Sacrificing yourself for your perception of a greater good serves to make you feel good (for the three seconds before you die) but it's unlikely that the reason for the sacrifice is that feeling. Yes, the person may think that whoever he is saving is better for the world than he would be, but if that is the case, what possible selfish motive may there be? Low self-esteem perhaps, but selfishness?

Much as I realise that in a sense I caused you to start this thread by pointing out somewhere that altuism may be inherently selfish, I find myself having to disagree with you.

Yes, on the whole it may be considered that way, and in terms of the little things, like giving money to a beggar, perhaps it even is that way. But when it comes to dying so that others may live, or suffering to help prevent the suffering of others, I'm not sure that the same rules can apply.

We must never forget that we are, per force, generalising. As I've pointed out frequently, the possible existence of an ulterior motive (especially a sub-conscious one) in no way negates the good that may arise from an action. (Not that you've said it does).

Darth Revan wrote:
Furls Fire wrote:My brother, Stephen.
Altruism personified.
Furls, much as your brother ruled; and you know I don't mean any disrespect here, he was still human... there in lies the flaw into altruism. A human can't be altruistic; it's just that simple.

How do you define altruism?

I've always steered clear of anything to do with Furl's brother, and obviously I know only what has been randomly posted about him, as I've assiduously avoided the memorial thread. I know that you mean no disrespect here, and nor do I, when I say that I could argue a selfish motive based on what I gather of his faith. I won't argue that however, not for fear of offending, but because I'm reasonably sure that it is not true.

I think that to reduce every good deed to how it made the "doer" feel is to ignore the true value of it. (not that you've argued otherwise).

I think it comes down to exactly what you mean by altruism.

Peace
--Avatar

Kevin's Watch

Altruism - Is it a lie?