Kevin's Watch

peter wrote:Yes, but to be fair, some of those female charachters have gone on to be great participants in the stories they 'inhabit' and quickly put their own stamp on the 'standard trope' template from which they spring. And I always quite liked that soft slightly cartoony feel that books like the 'Shannara' series had - OK, it's simple and formulaic, but it can still be damn good fun!

By the way in a quote somewhere up above The Duchess of Amalfi (I think) says that Elena betrayed the Land, though she was not inherently evil. I cannot but but be by this idea. Elena absolutely did NOT betray the Land. Out of her love and sacrifice for the Land she made a mistake. Wheter Corruption had a part in that mistake or not I do not know - but I do know there was no betrayal involved in it.

Okay, I have two words for this. Kevin Landwaster. 'Nuff said?

I mean, come on. He betrayed the land too and pretty much fell into the same trap that Elena did. Out of his love and sacrifice for the Land, he made a mistake too. Mind you, he enacted the Ritual of Desacration, but it's only the differance between burning a part of the house down versus most of it. She broke the Law of Death, which was almost a Desacration. (Sorry for spelling.)

So, in short, despite their best intentions, they both betrayed the Land.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:Okayyy... I'mma just gonna say - "thems sounds like fightin' words"!!! Didn't you see what Matrixman's post there?!?!?

Yes well - my loyalty to Elena (unlike Covenant's) runs deep, and I 'bridal' ( ) at use of words like 'betrayal' to describe her sacrifice.

The women are victims - but so are the men.

Ah, but, even though the Ritual of Descrecation burned the whole house down, to get rid of the termites, a new hosue was able to be built, just like the old one, and there was peace for 1000s of years, there was no permanent harm done.

Elena caused permanent harm by breaking the Law of Death, that couldn't be undone.

But without the Law of Death broken, Covenant wouldn't have been able to beat Foul in the Second Chronicals. So, perhaps neither of them betrayed the Land?

And, btw, it is my goal is to have all be Linden Lover's. Even if it's the last thing I do!

Neither Kevin nor Elena betrayed the Land- they just screwed up. The Haruchai would probably think that mistakes on that order of magnitude are indistinguishable from betrayal. But I'm a little more forgiving.

Peter wrote:Yes, but to be fair, some of those female charachters have gone on to be great participants in the stories they 'inhabit' and quickly put their own stamp on the 'standard trope' template from which they spring. And I always quite liked that soft slightly cartoony feel that books like the 'Shannara' series had - OK, it's simple and formulaic, but it can still be damn good fun!

Hey I love the Belgariad. In the same way I love action movies. Disconnect the brain, and just enjoy the ride. But it did make me chuckle that I could attach a name to each of the fantasy tropes directly from Eddings' work. I admit I have a soft spot for Polgara, but "powerful female magic user with terminal PMS" sums her up pretty well.

Falconer Winterleaf wrote:And, btw, it is my goal is to have all be Linden Lover's. Even if it's the last thing I do!

Hahaha, good luck with that one!

Murrin- Yes. THANK you.

peter wrote:Yes well - my loyalty to Elena (unlike Covenant's) runs deep, and I 'bridal' at use of words like 'betrayal' to describe her sacrifice.

Umm, I don't know if I can keep talking with you about this subject. While I may be an ardent Linden Lover, I certainly wish to join the ranks of THOO-HLE-H, (Where "HLE" stands for "High Lord Elena") or w/e you wanna call it.

Gahhh, "THOOHLEH" sounds almost exactly like THOOLAH. :< Confusing.

Ummm... maybe we can talk about Memla or something. I seem to remember Memla being AMAZING. How come nobody ever talks about her?!?

It is a mark of the civility of the Watch that we never have a problem with 'agreeing to disagree' - and I love that. (Can't promise to become a member of thooeleleh or whatever it was though
Yes - Melma was awsome, loved her to bits!

Yeah....I think Gibbon-Raver did too! Lol.

Memla was fairly cool, but she died really early on. We barely knew her. I think she was SRD's version of the Red Shirts. Kinda sucks, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

And I don't care how hard it will be to "exterminate" THOOLAH, I'm going to do my best. But THOOHLEH can stick around. Not a big fan of Elena. Just a bit to crazy and creepy, thanks! I will concede the hot point, though. Seems like you can only get two of the three in the land. Beutiful, Sane, Smart. Elena was missing sane.....which seemed to effect the smart. And the beutiful, but the other direction.

We need an item for THOOHLEH, now.

Wonder if there is an connection to people's opinon of Elena to their opinon of Linden.

Falconer Winterleaf wrote: And I don't care how hard it will be to "exterminate" THOOLAH, I'm going to do my best.

Be very careful...they'll hunt you down. I once posted somewhere a minor rant about the errors of THOOLAH thinking, and got a pm from someone to stop ruining their fun.

My armor is proof against most assaults! I shall provale! At the very least, I will either cripple them or convince them to keep their lothing private.

But, I will gather my power first. Once I have have rallied the armies of Revelstone, I shall commit my forces to battle against Soulcrusher! And I will lead the way, as the High Lord of the hundreds of Eomen I plan to send forth!



Okay, so maybe my plans are a bit high sighted. I'll start small. I promise.

I think there is a significant progression between the First and Second Chronicles in the position of female characters.

In the First Chronicles there is a single, male, main protagonist. Also, while there are many strong and interesting female characters, the main heroes of the Land that act throughout the trilogy to resist the Despiser and assist Covenant are male (Mhoram, Foamfollower and Bannor). While Elena is arguably of equal significance to these three males in terms of the narrative, she is also flawed and errs seriously in a way that they don't.

In the Second Chronicles there are two main protagonists (one male, one female) and there are female heroes in The First and Hollian that are of equal stature to any of the male heroes, not to mention the other strong female characters such as Memla. There is also a very powerful ambiguous female character in Infelice.

One other comment that is worth making is that all the unequivocally and irredeemably bad characters in the First and Second Chronicles are males, or are represented as male.

As this is the First and Second Chronicles forum I will forebear from commenting on how this question unfolds in The Last Chronicles.

I think SRD is essentially chivalrous in his depiction of women ....... probably a reflection of his (age related) unconscious perception of them...... with a peppering of liberal pc thinking thrown in on top.