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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:17 pm
by Sweet Brutha Numpsay
I had to read "Wheel of Time" in elementary school. I couldnt even mention it in the same sentence of JRRT or SRD.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:21 pm
by Thaale
I'm not a Martinite at all. Then again, I'm Gen X.

I liked Jordan a lot, at one point. I liked the first two books, then the sixth book rekindled my interest. Since then, it's been heavy going.

I really have to blame the publishers and editors more than the authors when these never-ending stories just drag on and on and on and on. That’s an editor’s job: to tighten things up, to hold authors to deadlines, etc. Supposedly RJ does want to conclude the Wheel (within two books, though he’s being saying two more books for quite a while now) and get back to writing about a Lan-like middle aged hero instead of a bunch of adolescents. But he doesn’t seem to know how to get off the merry-go-round and IMO, his editor isn’t helping him.

Yes, his women – save Min – are appalling and all alike.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:30 pm
by burgs
Edge wrote:Exactly what did SRD 'borrow' from JRRT? Enquiring minds want to know.
The similarities are basically skin deep, but for the simple fan who doesn't know how to look deeper, they see this:

Forestals = Ents
Giants = Ents
Mhoram = Gandalf (Gandalf went to Dol Guldur to "explore" and his presence was known and feared, much as Mhoram encountered Samadhi and Samadhi "knew" him)
Ranyhyn = Rohirrim
Woodhelvenin = Elves (tall, fair...)
Lords = the Istari (although with the Lords there is no deceit)
Cavewights = Orcs, perhaps more appropriately Uruk-hai


That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:42 pm
by Sweet Brutha Numpsay
Stephen Donaldson changed the face of fantasy with the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. The first six books in the series not only sold millions of copies, they created the modern fantasy genre. I dont think he will ever be as popular as JRRT, Yet Tolkien has a 40 year head start, which is no small margin, and has the likes of Peter Jackson to repopularize his works to a new generation. Maybe in the year 2040 or so, We will be blessed with the theatrical release of TCOTC.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:49 pm
by Thaale
To add to what burgs66 wrote re Tolkien’s influences on SRD, the ring of power itself is the first example usually mentioned. Drool was a Gollum-esque figure. The Lords were rough approximations of wizards, and the Ramen bore a (very approximate) similarity to the Rohirym.

I think it’s inarguable that Foamfollower’s Giantish deliberation was partially ent-inspired. TC’s and Foamfollower’s journey to Foul’s Creche was obviously influenced by Frodo and Sam.

I have never read what SRD himself has said regarding JRRT’s influence on him. I’d be shocked to find he denied there was one or that it was heavy in spots.

I have no problem with it, even as a big fan of Tolkien’s. As I said before, SRD added enough of his own to all of the TC books that they are unquestionably his own – unlike the egregious Terry Brooks.

burgs66, I don’t know that the Istari can be fairly accused of deception. They present themselves as Wizards; what is it they deceive about? That they are of the Maiar? That’s not something that someone such as Dori or Ted Sandyman or Butterbur is in a position to have a clue about in the first place. And someone like Gildor would know it to begin with.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:54 pm
by burgs
Thaale, I was referring specifically to Saruman.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:04 pm
by Gadget nee Jemcheeta
Oh, just to throw in on this, the Lurker of the Sarangrave Flat and the Warder of Moria are pretty similar. Even the tension before they make their appearance is similar.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
by Thaale
Saruman. Right. True.

Now one could argue that Kevin was a bit deceptive, especially if one were a Bloodguard. Then there was Elena. And Foul himself when he was on the Council...

Good point, JemCheeta. The Watcher in the Water. The Watcher got Óin (Gimli's uncle). Not a great way to go.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:27 pm
by Gadget nee Jemcheeta
Oh yeah. The Watcher. I got the Warder from a different fantasy series. I wish I could remember what it was.. it was SO obviously a rip off of tolkien, and I think it's got a decade or two under its belt too.... in that one, the big tentacle monster guarded a giant mine that was the home of a race like dwarves... there were even hobbits, although they had a different name and were thinner.

There was some kind of spreading shadow in that one... anyone have any ideas? It was at least 4 books long.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:37 pm
by Edge
Wow, very intelligent responses. Thank you.

As burgs66 pointed out, most of the similarities are superficial. I'd have to say even the Lurker of the Sarangrave Flat / Warder of Moria comparison is superficial, as the Warder is a straightforward monster, while the Lurker is an intelligence animating a geographical area - a much more sophisticated concept.

As far as the different races go: one of the many things that I have always appreciated about SRD's writing, is that the various races populating the Chronicles are very unique ceations. So, yeah - I can accept that there are some fleeting similarities, but I don't think the resemblance is anything other than merely superficial. For example, the Ents may resemble the Giants in that they tend to be long-winded (and rather large) - but that's pretty much all they have in common. Can you imagine an Ent saying, "Joy is in the ears that hear"? They're much more likely to say, "Hm, Hoom, Haaaa-rumph".

I still maintain that there are significant parallels between CS Lewis and SRD's writing, and I wonder why we don't ever see that mentioned as a comparison, rather than the hackneyed "best thing since Tolkien" spiel.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:48 pm
by aiken
JemCheeta wrote:I don't care if he doesn't get a single new reader, to be honest. I mean, I hope he does, but I always got the impression that he was finishing the series both for himself, and for us... those that need to see the story come to its end.
But more sales also give SRD more power vis a vis the publisher and (I hope) make it more likely we'll see more fantasy from him in the future. Plus, since I loved SRD's work, a part of me would liek to see others enjoy it, too. Last, maybe if SRD becomes more popular, we'll see less crap fantasy b/c publishers will realize that intelligent authors can sell, too.

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:51 pm
by Gadget nee Jemcheeta
Here, here!

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:20 pm
by drew
Can you imagine an Ent saying, "Joy is in the ears that hear"? They're much more likely to say, "Hm, Hoom, Haaaa-rumph"
HAHAHAHAHA!

OF course there are comparisons....EVERY fantasy author has borrowed some stuff from Tolkien. HE deffinatly borrowed from King Arthor.
Gandolf/Merlin...Arogon/Lancelot...Arthor/Frodo...the Ring of Power/Excaliber.

I think the main reason people shit on Donaldson for ripping off Tolkien, is that he used a ring too...every one else uses a sword (Eddings/Brooks/Goodkind.)
....what would have happened if Covenant had his white gold sword with him when he was first summoned......?

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:08 am
by burgs
To defend Tolkien, yes, he did borrow from Nordic mythology. And a little bit from Arthurian tales. But just like SRD made his work his own, Tolkien made his work his own. Gandalf transcended Merlin.

I disagree, however, with the Lancelot/Aragorn, Frodo/Arthur, and Ring/Excalibur comparisons. I'd be willing to go for a Narsil/Excalibur comparison, but not the ring. That came from deeper mythology.

Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:29 am
by drew
.....Well...agreed. I haven't read them in a long time. I wasn't compairing the ring to excaliber, but most fantasy novels have....(to quote David Eddings) a magic thing-a-ma-jig.
-But now we're getting off topic...the topic being; this book is great!


ps-I do however see simalarities between gollum and Anele...at least Gollum in the Hobbitt. The third person thing; kinda nuts; but kinda sad too; Really old; Lost something-VERY IMPORTANT.

I wonder if Anele and Linden will be squaring off with some Riddles In The Dark?

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:23 am
by Variol Farseer
burgs66 wrote:Thaale, I was referring specifically to Saruman.
Not to say that there haven't been deceitful Lords at any time in the Council's known or rumoured history. There was this Lord called Foul, once. . . . :P

As for this little matter about sales: Don't expect the Last Chronicles to have anything like the sales of the other two series . . . and don't blame the publisher. Blame the publishing industry if you like, but Putnam is no more to blame than any other major imprint owned by a Brobdingnagian media conglomerate. Two salient issues leap to mind:

1. Book prices. As Donald Maass, the well-known agent, has repeatedly said, 'Prices have gone up; unit sales have gone down. Doesn't anybody get this?' It's a lot more difficult to sell two million copies of any book — the kind of numbers the First and Second Chronicles got — than it was in the early 1980s.

2. Vast increase in the competition. When the First Chronicles were published in 1977, there was no commercial fantasy genre. None. There was Tolkien, who was considered entirely sui generis; there were various Sword & Sorcery authors, published in small editions by disreputable paperback houses (hello, Ace Books and DAW); there were kids' fantasy books; but nothing aimed at the mainstream (i.e. commercial) adult audience.

Just before that year, Lester del Rey took over Ballantine Books' ailing fantasy imprint and bet the farm on his hunch that there was a huge audience for imitations of Tolkien. (It's an amazing testimony to the ineptitude of Ballantine that their fantasy program was ailing, considering that they had the U.S. paperback rights to all of Tolkien's books, but they somehow managed it.) The Del Rey imprint had its public debut in 1977, publishing five books that completely changed the face of fantasy literature. These were the five books:

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
Terry Brooks, The Sword of Shannara
Stephen R. Donaldson, Lord Foul's Bane
Stephen R. Donaldson, The Illearth War
Stephen R. Donaldson, The Power That Preserves*

Brooks and Donaldson were the very first writers for adults who followed in the footsteps of Tolkien. If you wanted to read epic fantasy in 1977, you had about a dozen books to choose from: The Hobbit, LOTR, a few obscure titles by Lord Dunsany and E.R. Eddison, and the five books listed above. Lester del Rey doubled the size of the field in under 12 months. And since he was right, and there was a huge audience waiting hungrily for more books like LOTR, all five of those books were massive bestsellers. (So was the Circle of Light series by Niel Hancock, which has been justly forgotten. It was an amazing heap of rubbish, fit to crawl in the sewers with the very worst fantasy that has been published in all the years since. But people were avid to buy anything that reminded them of Tolkien, no matter how wretched.)

Nowadays, several hundred fantasy books are published each year in the U.S., and readers can afford to be a lot more choosy. The market is much bigger, so SRD could have million-selling books without having to saturate the whole fantasy-reading population, but the number of titles has grown far faster than the number of readers. In 1977, SRD was clearly the class of the field (except for Tolkien, who was a special case, being dead). Now, there are at least a dozen major authors who can compete with SRD on literary quality,** and all of them have worked harder than he in recent years to keep their reputations current and their readers habituated to buy their books.

In the circumstances, a top-20 seller in the NYT list is a very respectable performance for Runes.

*Yes, I know the Covenant books were published in hardcover by Holt, Rinehart & Winston. This was only because Del Rey didn't yet have the facilities to do their own hardcovers. It was Lester del Rey who bought and edited the books, and sold the sub-rights to HR&W.

**I understand that George R.R. Martin, Guy Gavriel Kay, Patricia McKillip, and Steven Brust are considered fairly uncontroversial choices for this list.

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:40 pm
by Thaale
Variol Farseer wrote:
1. Book prices. As Donald Maass, the well-known agent, has repeatedly said, 'Prices have gone up; unit sales have gone down. Doesn't anybody get this?' It's a lot more difficult to sell two million copies of any book — the kind of numbers the First and Second Chronicles got — than it was in the early 1980s.
I'm not going to bother researching the CPI, the average hardback price in 1982 (e.g.), and the average hardback price today, but my off-the-cuff impression is that this is totally inapplicable to hardbacks. IIRC, back in 1982 The One Tree was $15.99? And Runes is $26.95. Adjusting for inflation, I think Runes would be a little cheaper.

But the real situation is much more extreme than that, because back in the early 80s you had only a limited number of discount booksellers such as Crown, which were very regionalized and which usually specialized in remaindered and damaged books. And of course you had no Amazon and no Costco.

New hardbacks today, especially bestsellers, get much deeper price cuts than was the case 20 years ago. Back then, you might find bestsellers being discounted 15% at Waldenbooks. Today, it's 40%. Runes actually sells for $16.17 on Amazon, and it's probably less than that at Costco. That's well under $10 in 1983 (or earlier) money.

As I said, I'm not even attempting to be scientific here by plucking out only two titles and comparing them from memory, but I'm pretty sure this back of the envelope estimation is a good approximation, even if I'm wrong at The One Tree was, say, $12.99.

Now paperbacks are a different story, and that may be what the quote you gave referred to. And paperback prices can make up the bulk of the numerical sales of a book. Paperback prices have been raised aggressively even as the quality of the paper, printing, and binding has decreased drastically (anyone ever have the misfortune to own a perperback Robert Jordan book?)

Back when the Second Chronicles were coming out, I was not a hardback buyer at all; in part because I was a cash-poor teen, but also because you could get about five or more $2.50-$3.99 paperbacks for the price of one hardback. Today's ratio is more like 3-1 when you consider the typical $6.99-$8.99 paperback price, or even 2-1 when you compare the discounted hardback price you actually pay to the paperback cover price, which is usually also the real price (Costco gives moderate discounts, but nothing like the cuts on hardbacks).

But none of this would apply to Runes's sales yet, because it's available only in hardback. Also, although I'm also not going to bother to do a Lexis search on where, say, The Wounded Land, peaked on the bestseller lists, I'm pretty sure it and its sequels did far better in its day than Runes is doing. Whether pricing or other factors caused an absolute rise or fall in book sales, I think the point of some was that Runes is also not making much of an impact as compared to other contemporary books, even other fantasy.

Which is a point you also addressed:
2. Vast increase in the competition. When the First Chronicles were published in 1977, there was no commercial fantasy genre. None. There was Tolkien, who was considered entirely sui generis; there were various Sword & Sorcery authors, published in small editions by disreputable paperback houses (hello, Ace Books and DAW); there were kids' fantasy books; but nothing aimed at the mainstream (i.e. commercial) adult audience.

Just before that year, Lester del Rey took over Ballantine Books' ailing fantasy imprint and bet the farm on his hunch that there was a huge audience for imitations of Tolkien. (It's an amazing testimony to the ineptitude of Ballantine that their fantasy program was ailing, considering that they had the U.S. paperback rights to all of Tolkien's books, but they somehow managed it.)

...

Brooks and Donaldson were the very first writers for adults who followed in the footsteps of Tolkien. If you wanted to read epic fantasy in 1977, you had about a dozen books to choose from: The Hobbit, LOTR, a few obscure titles by Lord Dunsany and E.R. Eddison, and the five books listed above.
Just to fill in the chinks in the above account with some information you personally seem aware of but some others might not be, there had been a very aggressive fantasy presence in the market from the late 60s to the mid 70s: the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series, edited by Lin Carter. It had been in the late 1960s that TLOTR simply exploded on college campuses and in the mainstream, and it didn't take Ballantine or other publishers 10 years to try to start capitalizing on the new demand for epic fantasy!

It was just that they were caught without product. After exhausting the very few available 20th century British fantasy series novelists such as Eddison and Peake, the label kind of sprawled all over the place. It had decent success with Lovecraft, Dunsany, and CA Smith, but that was fantasy of a very non-Tolkienian kind that didn't feed the Tolkien appetite. Then there were reprints, even translations, of two- and three-century old classics, and works by new authors (such as Katherine Kurtz).

All in all, I think the BAF series comprised about 56 books over five years (one release per month, IIRC). Sales tailed off dramatically after readers found even the most Tolkien-like multi-volume series of its early days unsatisfying, and the succeeding books were progressively less relevant to the specialized Tolkien taste.

None of this is to contradict your account, just to fill in the gaps for those who wonder why it took so long for the industry to try to find the next Tolkien. As you say, fantasy in 1977 was at a low-water mark, and there had never been an "epic quest," TLOTR-style fantasy follow-up until the advent of Brooks and D&D in the late 70s.

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:17 pm
by Gadget nee Jemcheeta
Thanks for all that info. That was some interesting stuff.

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:18 pm
by burgs
Yes, very interesting.

Three comments:
1. Costco doesn't sell Runes (at least not where I live)
2. Lin Carter's experience was disastrous (ask SRD)
3. In my recollection, WGW was a #1 bestseller. I believe that TWL and TOT were also #1 bestsellers, but I could be wrong.
4. Goerge Martin has yet to crack the top 10 on the NYT bestseller list, and he's writing first rate fantasy. Hacks like Salvatore are. It's a sad state.

Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:00 pm
by Thaale
2. Lin Carter's experience was disastrous (ask SRD)
I read something here relating to LC, but now I can't remember what. Anyway, I'm not sure he did the BAF stuff well, but he did do it.
3. In my recollection, WGW was a #1 bestseller. I believe that TWL and TOT were also #1 bestsellers, but I could be wrong.
Sounds right, at least as far as the later books. I do remember seeing display ads in the book section of the newspaper for WGW. Did Runes have those?
4. George Martin has yet to crack the top 10 on the NYT bestseller list, and he's writing first rate fantasy. Hacks like Salvatore are. It's a sad state.
The later GRRM books will probably hit higher than earlier works even if they sell fewer copies. That's been the pattern with Jordan, Goodkind, etc. The early books may sell more copies overall, but naturally a first novel isn't going to debut at #1. I'm pretty sure the past few Jordan books have entered at #1 on the list their first full week, then dropped to like #17, then out of the top 50 altogether, within two or three weeks. Whereas book #2 might peak at #125 or something but sell well for a year or two.