Kevin's Watch

I always found it interesting that the destruction of the SoL has such negative effects. I understand that it's central to the story both physically and philisophically, but since it's just a tool, why would it's destruction affect the Law directly? Wouldn't it make more sense that one would have to destroy what the SoL was made from to wreak such havoc?

Because, in the world of the Land, it's NOT just a tool.

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:And because Earthpower was the strength of mystery and spirit, the Staff became the thing it served. It was the Law; the Law was incarnate in the Staff. The tool and its purpose were one.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

Did the Tree willingly give Berek the Staff and lillianrill?

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Did the Tree willingly give Berek the Staff and lillianrill?

Good question Jacob raver...... I don't understand that either. How is it Berek was able to get the original SOL from the one tree without waking the WOW?

When TC and Gang went to the tree they could see where the original SOL had came off the tree.

Who put the runes on the original SOL?

Where did the bands come from?

What kind of metal are they? (I thought metal was rare in the land)

What importance do the bands have?

[/spoiler]

(sigh) I find it so sad that SRD doesn't care enough to go back and reread his own work before writing the new ones...he's going to miss important issues like this that deserve some kind of explination in the last two books. Don't get me wrong, some things are best left enigmatic...but not this one, IMO.

Spoiler

Must....resist....Last Chronicles Spoilers..... In other words, I believe these issues are addressed in the Last Chronicles...if you're interested in such things

Spoilered because it's better safe then sorry...

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:(sigh) I find it so sad that SRD doesn't care enough to go back and reread his own work before writing the new ones...he's going to miss important issues like this that deserve some kind of explination in the last two books. Don't get me wrong, some things are best left enigmatic...but not this one, IMO.

He did go back and reread his works, dude. He said so himself. I guess I find it so sad that you won't cut him a break. He's human, after all.

rdhopeca wrote: He did go back and reread his works, dude. He said so himself. I guess I find it so sad that you won't cut him a break. He's human, after all.

What he said x2.

Plus he does have his three readers here on the Watch whose job it is is to point out such issues to him...

Am I the only one who feels that the destruction of the Land is where Donaldson is going, both thematically, structurally and logically? I've found myself intrigued by the fact that this time around there are four books, and I'm left feeling that there will be a trilogy, and a final book to wrap up the events of all three trilogies. That seems more structural. I also think that given we're playing with despair, and ways of over-coming despair, it is possible to defeat despair by accepting it and forging something despite despair. I have feelings on how the series will play out based on that, but don;t want to say too much, just in case...

^
The question I am asking is: How does the land avoid destruction?

How do you mend Roger's despair? How does your archetypal world NOT shatter when you have a child who you felt you were not there for, did not fulfill your responsibilities to? Every bit of damage you see in him reflects in you, and tears through your psyche like a Fall.

Choosing yourself not to despair does not instantly repair damage done to others. They're not going to all join hands and start singing "Hey Jude" and everything is better.

There is going to have to be a big gift of Faith somewhere.

My bad. I assumed that because he had so many issues arise from the first two books, continuity errors and such that he didn't do his homework...

La Tristesse wrote:I've found myself intrigued by the fact that this time around there are four books, and I'm left feeling that there will be a trilogy, and a final book to wrap up the events of all three trilogies

I doubt it will be anything like that; it's just the form the story is taking.

SRD has said before that the 2nd Chrons should have been four books, but that LdR chopped them into three because he thought trilogies were better.

I've always thought that SRD was an Adept at writing himself into corners... and a Master at wriggling his way out of them.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:My bad. I assumed that because he had so many issues arise from the first two books, continuity errors and such that he didn't do his homework...

I've noticed that with SRD, seeming continuity errors are often addressed later. He sets things up well in advance - and remember that he claims (I'm not entirely convinced, but I'll accept his word on it) he conceived the Second and Third Chronicles at the same time.

On the other hand, he's writing lengthy and reasonably complex stories; a few little errors are bound to occur.

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Did the Tree willingly give Berek the Staff and lillianrill?

I didn't understand this question until I saw your replies. I think you're asking why Berek didn't rouse the worm.

That was answered in the Second Chronicles.

In [u]White Gold Weilder[/u] was wrote:"We couldn't get a branch of the One Tree. There was no way. But it's been done before. How did Berek do it?"

Findail paused at the wall, answered over his shoulder. "The Worm was not made restive by his approach, for he did not win his way with combat."

Demondime-a-dozen-spawn wrote:I've always thought that SRD was an Adept at writing himself into corners... and a Master at wriggling his way out of them.

You may feel that way, but he has assured us many times that he always knows how it will end before he starts writing. So I think this thought you are thinking is that SRD is a master of suspense.

CovenantJr wrote:On the other hand, he's writing lengthy and reasonably complex stories; a few little errors are bound to occur.

And he's admitted to some. But I don't think there are so many as to make 'continuity error' ones first assumption in any matter.

La Tristesse wrote:Am I the only one who feels that the destruction of the Land is where Donaldson is going, both thematically, structurally and logically?

Nope. I think so too. Except "destruction" might not be the right word. Certainy "an end". After all, if the Land exists to help Covenant resolve his internal struggles, then if he resolves them all, what happens to the Land? Thematically, the resolution of Covenant's internal struggles demands the Land be no moree. And I believe that the Last Chronicles does indeed resolve all of Covenant's internal struggles. Why else write it, and call it "Final"?

wayfriend wrote: You may feel that way, but he has assured us many times that he always knows how it will end before he starts writing. So I think this thought you are thinking is that SRD is a master of suspense.

But the whole series is partly based in SRD's own personal life, and nobody knows how their life is going to end. It doesn't always turn out the way you think it will.

wayfriend wrote: Nope. I think so too. Except "destruction" might not be the right word. Certainy "an end". After all, if the Land exists to help Covenant resolve his internal struggles, then if he resolves them all, what happens to the Land? Thematically, the resolution of Covenant's internal struggles demands the Land be no moree. And I believe that the Last Chronicles does indeed resolve all of Covenant's internal struggles. Why else write it, and call it "Final"?

If the Land exists solely as a stage to act out TC's psychic struggles, there shouldn't be a Last Chronicles, since he's dead. He has no need to resolve his own struggles anymore.

It seems the Land has transformed into the collective unconscious of everyone he knew in life. Linden, Joan, Roger, etc... They're all still dealing with his legacy, but it's being played out in his Land. Other living people are involved with the land, coping with his life and death.

So, if the Land is destroyed, I think it's going to represent his family and loved ones letting go and moving on in their own lives, deaths, or personal healing, as Linden was partly trying to do (she still kept herself involved with Joan, though, and gave her her wedding ring back, maybe a mistake.)

CovenantJr wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:My bad. I assumed that because he had so many issues arise from the first two books, continuity errors and such that he didn't do his homework...

I've noticed that with SRD, seeming continuity errors are often addressed later. He sets things up well in advance...

I noticed that too!

But wrapping them up twenty years later, for any reason, to me at least, shows that while some might be 'intended openings', most are actually 'gaping holes'.

rdhopeca wrote:He did go back and reread his works, dude. He said so himself. I guess I find it so sad that you won't cut him a break. He's human, after all.

No freaking way would I cut him a break. You don't come back to one of the most influencial fantasy works of all-time twenty years later and expect 'a break' from die-hard fans! That's ridiculous. Man, up. He needs to do his homework. Some small mistakes ARE bound to happen, but not as many as he has made.

The better the writer, the better the work, the more I expect and the more scrutiny I'll give it. Do we really want George Lucas the 2nd, here?

(oh, damn, soryy...lthat might have been going too far)

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote::Did the Tree willingly give Berek the Staff and lillianrill?

wayfriend wrote:I didn't understand this question until I saw your replies. I think you're asking why Berek didn't rouse the worm.

It was more a question of whether the Worm, Tree and Earthpower are sentient. It 'spoke' to Berek, I assume it 'gave' Berek the lillianrill and Staff. It was more an opening to that thread-0-thinking.[/i]

Whatever the outcome is regarding the Land ,Covenant , Linden and friends," Joy is in the ears that hear"... ..at least we have beheld a marvelous story

Anima Corrupt wrote:
If the Land exists solely as a stage to act out TC's psychic struggles, there shouldn't be a Last Chronicles, since he's dead. He has no need to resolve his own struggles anymore.

It seems the Land has transformed into the collective unconscious of everyone he knew in life. Linden, Joan, Roger, etc... They're all still dealing with his legacy, but it's being played out in his Land. Other living people are involved with the land, coping with his life and death.

So, if the Land is destroyed, I think it's going to represent his family and loved ones letting go and moving on in their own lives, deaths, or personal healing, as Linden was partly trying to do (she still kept herself involved with Joan, though, and gave her her wedding ring back, maybe a mistake.)

Intriguing analysis, as always. I don't necesarily think that the idea of 'moving on' will be at play, mainly because of Jeremiah. One could try to 'accept' that a child is damaged beyond repair and move on to other things (it may be giving up, but one could rationalize that the child is impossible to heal, hence the giving up of effort). This idea, at least in a Donaldson story, does not set well with me.

The rest of your statement, though, is an excellent way to view the Chronicles (hell, even what I disagree with is ingenious )

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:It was more a question of whether the Worm, Tree and Earthpower are sentient. It 'spoke' to Berek, I assume it 'gave' Berek the lillianrill and Staff. It was more an opening to that thread-0-thinking.

I don't think the Earthpower 'spoke' to Berek in a sentient way. I think it was more akin to how a work of art (a painting, we'll say) can 'speak' to someone who beholds it. In this contact, 'speak' should be used to mean 'affect'. So, Berek, at this moment, perceives Earthpower. He is so impressed by what he sees as goodness that it affects him so deeply that he would want to spend his life preserving it... if only he wasn't being beaten by an evil army. But then, his perception grasps that Earthpower by aid him. The 'fire-lions' are called, and an event happened that would all ready be viewed as legendary by people who witness it. As time goes on, this legend becomes myth and in the process, Earthpower (in the telling, not in reality) gains the status of being sentient.