Kevin's Watch

Lord Mhoram wrote:It was St Paul's mingling of Judaism and Greek paganism that helped Christianity to survive.

Yes, that is a thought that was going around in my head - and has a relation to our discussion on Monotheism - perhaps some percentage of these polytheistic elements in Christianity were there to placate the Greek/Roman desire for such things.

Also, the Greeks and Romans had a tradition of deifying great men, such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar, perhaps that is where the concept of Sainthood relates to.

Vector,

Yes, that is a thought that was going around in my head - and has a relation to our discussion on Monotheism - perhaps some percentage of these polytheistic elements in Christianity were there to placate the Greek/Roman desire for such things.

I thought so too at first. But remember: angels, devils et al are found primarily in the Hebrew Bible. It is a concept almost entirely Near Eastern. As to the concept of the Trinity? I do not know where the roots of that could be found. The concept of Christ as the Messiah, though, is also a Jewish concept: Messiahs were part of 1st-century AD kingdom movements and steeped in Hebrew folklore (think: Son of David).

Also, the Greeks and Romans had a tradition of deifying great men, such as Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar, perhaps that is where the concept of Sainthood relates to.

Indeed, and probably also where the Western habit of deifying great athletes, military leaders, even tyrants comes from.

Lord Mhoram wrote:I thought so too at first. But remember: angels, devils et al are found primarily in the Hebrew Bible.

I agree, the antecedents to Angel and Demons/Devils are definitely from the old testament. However, Christianity seems to have become much more preoccupied with these aspects than either Islam or Judaism - perhaps because of the Roman influence. I do not believe Saints had a precedent in Hebrew lore.

Another Roman influence is the predilection for statues and paintings/mosaics. Certainly a factor in the idolization of the various divine personages.

Vector,

I agree, the antecedents to Angel and Demons/Devils are definitely from the old testament. However, Christianity seems to have become much more preoccupied with these aspects than either Islam or Judaism - perhaps because of the Roman influence. I do not believe Saints had a precedent in Hebrew lore.

Wow, good point. I hadn't considered Islam and Juidaism and their use of those symbols versus Christians'.... That's an interesting point.

Another Roman influence is the predilection for statues and paintings/mosaics. Certainly a factor in the idolization of the various divine personages.

Also true.

If we decide to go over all Greek and Roman influences on Western society, we might be discussing it for a bit.

Lord Mhoram wrote:If we decide to go over all Greek and Roman influences on Western society, we might be discussing it for a bit.

Ok, lets make it easier and just discuss Tibetan influences on Western culture. That should be a bit easier...

lol

drew wrote:It's the message that's important, it's the teachings that matter; and no scientist, or historian or athiest can do anything to persuede me otherwise.

BANGARANG!!! I've found wisdom and beauty in pretty much every religion I've read about, regardless of the fact that I don't believe any of them are the One Truth.

Well said Fist.

--Avatar

drew wrote: If you really are looking for the origin of Christianity; let's look at what Christianity was probebly supposed to be...a continuation of Judaism. Whoever you beleive Jesus to be...a prophit; the personification of the Creator; just a really knowledgable guy...he was teaching to the Hebrew people--it's just that through time, most people who liked what they heard did not want to be Jews...so Christianity kinda broke off and did it's own thing.

I'll try to find it, but anyone know of the verses in the Old Testament about God turning from the Jews and going out into the rest of the world?

Cyberweez,

Here are some quotes about the Messiah. Don't know about "turning from the Jews" though.

Micah 5:2,

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Isaiah 52:12,

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 9:6,

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Malachi 3:1,

"Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger [mal'ak, lit. "Angel"] of the covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts

2 Samuel 7:14,

'I will be to him a father, and he will be to me a son.'

There are a few.

Cybrweez wrote:

drew wrote: If you really are looking for the origin of Christianity; let's look at what Christianity was probebly supposed to be...a continuation of Judaism. Whoever you beleive Jesus to be...a prophit; the personification of the Creator; just a really knowledgable guy...he was teaching to the Hebrew people--it's just that through time, most people who liked what they heard did not want to be Jews...so Christianity kinda broke off and did it's own thing.

I'll try to find it, but anyone know of the verses in the Old Testament about God turning from the Jews and going out into the rest of the world?

Ok, found some. Zech 2:10-12. From Isaiah 2, 55:5, 56:3-6, 42:6, 60:3, Mal 1:11. These are really to show that the God of the OT always planned to go the the gentiles, it was never meant only for the Jews. There are examples of going to the gentiles even in the OT, such as Jonah.

Also, I think we should separate Christianity and Catholicism. Or rather, let's say biblical Christianity and Catholicism, b/c the bible says Scripture has all authority, but Catholicism says church traditions are equal to Scripture. Such as Mary remaining a virgin, that's not biblical. Praying to saints, so on. I guess that's getting into another can of worms tho.

It sure is. In fact, somewhere in here there's a thread, "Christians Vs Christians" in which I ask exactly that question.

As far as I (as a non-christian) am concerned, christianity is just that. A sect which follows the teachings and principles of christ. Theoretically at least. Catholics are christians, Methodists, Baptists, Presbytarians, Lutherans, they're all christians.

And when you can't even agree amongst yourselves what constitutes christianity, and what you should be doing as one, is there any wonder that you're struggling to convince the rest of us?

--Avatar

Avatar wrote:It sure is. In fact, somewhere in here there's a thread, "Christians Vs Christians" in which I ask exactly that question.

As far as I (as a non-christian) am concerned, christianity is just that. A sect which follows the teachings and principles of christ. Theoretically at least. Catholics are christians, Methodists, Baptists, Presbytarians, Lutherans, they're all christians.

And when you can't even agree amongst yourselves what constitutes christianity, and what you should be doing as one, is there any wonder that you're struggling to convince the rest of us?

--Avatar

Anyone who follows the teachings of Christ is a christian. But you're talking about individuals. I'm talking about religions. Catholicism as a religion has added many things to the Scriptures that is supposed to have equal weight w/Scripture. So if the Scriptures say Christ died once for all mankind, and you believe during every mass he dies again, are you following Scripture? The issue comes down to what you may consider to be important, black and white, vs what's gray.

But, that bit about not agreeing therefore can't convince anyone, that means we're human! Give me a philosophy that every adherent agrees w/every other one. Maybe if there is only one adherent. Besides, its not my job to convince anyone, that's up to God. And if you really want to know, study His Word, not my ideas about it.

Cybrweez wrote:Anyone who follows the teachings of Christ is a christian. But you're talking about individuals. I'm talking about religions.

Hmm, interesting distinction. Except of course, that I understand "christianity" to be the religion, and Catholicism etc. to merely be branches of it. It's like the Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims. Arguing amongst themselves on points of doctrine. (Well, in their case, one point really, but that's beside the point. )

Cybrweez wrote:But, that bit about not agreeing therefore can't convince anyone, that means we're human! Give me a philosophy that every adherent agrees w/every other one. Maybe if there is only one adherent. Besides, its not my job to convince anyone, that's up to God.

I certainly agree that not being able to agree on anything seems to be an important characteristic of humanity, but then is religion considered a "philosophy" by the religious?

And I thought christians were enjoined to "spread the word"? I'm just teasing you really.

Gotta go. More Later

--A

Cybrweez wrote:

Avatar wrote:It sure is. In fact, somewhere in here there's a thread, "Christians Vs Christians" in which I ask exactly that question.

As far as I (as a non-christian) am concerned, christianity is just that. A sect which follows the teachings and principles of christ. Theoretically at least. Catholics are christians, Methodists, Baptists, Presbytarians, Lutherans, they're all christians.

And when you can't even agree amongst yourselves what constitutes christianity, and what you should be doing as one, is there any wonder that you're struggling to convince the rest of us?

--Avatar

Anyone who follows the teachings of Christ is a christian. But you're talking about individuals. I'm talking about religions. Catholicism as a religion has added many things to the Scriptures that is supposed to have equal weight w/Scripture. So if the Scriptures say Christ died once for all mankind, and you believe during every mass he dies again, are you following Scripture? The issue comes down to what you may consider to be important, black and white, vs what's gray.

But, that bit about not agreeing therefore can't convince anyone, that means we're human! Give me a philosophy that every adherent agrees w/every other one. Maybe if there is only one adherent. Besides, its not my job to convince anyone, that's up to God. And if you really want to know, study His Word, not my ideas about it.

No, that bit proves that Christians are human. Including those that come up with the various forms of Christianity. (Don't worry, 'Weez. I'm just sure that your version is the right one.)

Cyberweez :

John 6: 54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

dennisrwood wrote:Cyberweez :

John 6: 54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

dennis, I believe Jesus gave His life for us. I think its obvious also that Jesus wants us to remember His sacrifice through communion. But I don't see anything about a continual sacrifice, which I'm guessing you were referring to.

Cyber:
www.catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002frs.asp

Wow, can't believe I remembered this discussion, mostly b/c of Nazareth. Just found this:

www.foxnews.com/scitech/2009/12/21/jesu ... latestnews

A recent find in the summer of a house in Nazareth, dated to Jesus' time.

I was watching a show about the origins of Jesus on TV just the other night and its pretty obvious from watching it that the church was tinkering with the language of the Bible to make things the way they wanted them to be. Like making sure that they could say that Mary stayed a virgin. So they tried to take out anything that referred to Jesus' family outside of Mary and Joseph.

But even knowing that the Bible has been tinkered with. Even knowing that the church put Christian holidays on dates as a means to eliminate the pagen ones, I still believe in God and I believe that Jesus was sent here to give us the means the enter Heaven.