Kevin's Watch

But I guess it worked for many of those who didn't read it first, as Darth and dlb show. Thank goodness, eh?

I read the book first also, but I understand what you're saying. The movie was obviously heavily edited, and felt rushed at times.

Lord Foul wrote:Disappointed, Fist? Truly? I mean, I can tell you hate to say it. Come on, that last hour was brilliant! You didn't come away smiling from that Obi-Wan/Anakin/Yoda/Palpatine climax? Bah! Like you once said, Fist, the movies are more or less a visual thing, and, in that context, I thought it was a superb ride.

Yeah, that's the way I always felt about Star Wars. It was intended to be a series of movies all along, and that's the medium I'd prefer to think about it. But never before have I felt that so much was lost from book-to-movie. And I don't read the books to get greater insights or anything, I just read them because I can't wait for the movie to come out! A couple big things I missed are the things I quoted a couple pages back; the stuff that makes Grievous terrifying, and Obi-Wan's immersion in the Force. Another thing I thought was awesome in the book was Mace's unique way of interacting with the Force. (No time to quote right now, but later, if anyone's interested. )

But yes, the fights were great. Particularly Mace vs. Palpatine! My favorite SW fight of all is still Maul vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. The choreography there was beyond belief! Particularly after Qui-Gon died. But Anakin vs. Obi-Wan was probaby the fastest swordplay of all, if not as well choreographed. The main problem being it was too dark to see everything, so they didn't bother putting as much into it. And it was SO good to finally see this fight that we first heard about nearly 30 years ago! (At least us old folks first heard about it 30 years ago. ) The emotional intensity was second to none!! Seeing Anakin catch fire was truly an amazing moment.

Also cool to hear Vader's theme the first time Palpatine said his new name!

Fist and Faith wrote:Another thing I thought was awesome in the book was Mace's unique way of interacting with the Force. (No time to quote right now, but later, if anyone's interested. )

Quote, Quote!

--A

I watched the movie last night, and I have read all the posts here and I apologize for repeating some already stated views at times but here's what I think of the movie and some comments thus far:

The book was without question better, however history has shown this is most often the case than not, I felt Stover did a real superior job with the novel, and much of what made it good is almost impossible to pass on toa film, especailly one like Starwars. I didn't watch the movie with any hopes that the movie would be better than the book if did occur IMHO it would have been the best Starwars movie ever, superceding Empire Strikes Back which was, and still without question IS the best Starwars movie ever, and it's not even close. My statement abouts books and movies does have a exception, and rather ironically it involves the prior 2 prequels, which IMHO both the movies and novelizations were mindless.

As it is I rank Revenge of the Sith as the third:

Empire Strikes Back (by a wide Margin)
A New Hope
Revenge of the Sith
Return of the Jedi
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

The bottom are interchangebale I found them both awful and contained perhaps the worst dialoge in the history of cinema.


My opinion of Sith? Well defintely better than the last 2 efforts, but it's no worldbeater either, however I am satisifed , that said I think the movie IMHO missed out on a lot of opportunities to be the best ever Starwars film with some more scences beign extended and some just thrown out.

Some thougths:

-As has been mentioned already, The Vader "noooooo!" was completely ridiculous. How did that make it into the film? Who the hell is editign these films, and why with all of Lucas's money doe he not have somone there just to "keep it real" with him? I would do it for free, that a clear case (much like in Clones Bobba Fettt's mindless cheering, or the inclusion of Jar Jar in Phantom Menace along with Jake Loyds mindless and multiple "Yipppppees!", that all he needs is some to tell him something is wack. It's not rocket science.

-I liked the scenes of the Jedi being massacred in other campaigns around the galaxy.

--One of the best parts of the movie is when Yoda ran up in Palpatine's office and making short work of the guards.

-Anakins defeat by Obi (legs buring) was done much better than I thougth it was going to look like. I do have one question....wouldn't the proximity of the heat be somewhat unbearable, at least making one sweat more profusely, or is it so hot, does it evaporate instanttly:)?

-I liked The Windu/palpatine and he Palpatine/Yoda, however even though Palpatine undoubtely has the best dialoge by far at time that laughing made him seem a bit high on the goofy meter. I also wish there was some way they could have betterexplaiend Yoda's reasoning for retreating as they did in the book, becasue I think that's one of the biggest and most important elements in the mythos

- R2 owns, all in all I liked the way the droids were handled, the begining convo while rescusng Palpatine abotu R2 nicely does a couple things, explain R2's uniqueness and shows Anakin liking his possesions.

-Most important. I LOVED the fact Bobba Fett played no role. Thank you George!

-The dialogue is MUCH better than the other 2 prequels, but it's still subpar IMHO, lets no kid ourselves. Many have already pointed out some of the worst examples. "Your breaking my heart"

-Someone made a point about the death scenes being rather quick, having read the book its eve more evident, especially with Dooku, again hwoever, I'm not going ot fault it for not comapring it to the book. That said the Dooku duel was amazing by Stover.

-Cll be nihilistic, and I know it wasn't going to happen but I really thought that some of the potentailly best scenes especially from a emotion grabbing standpoint were missed out by cutting away. The murder of the younglings would have been exceptional, as well as a longer showing of the execution of the seperatist hierachy in full, however, I loved the entranve by Anakin...pardon Lord Vader, coming into the room, and sealing all the exits before killing them all off.

- Padme has a broken heart and had no reason to live thus died ......what about your kids????? Didn't Leia say in Return of the Jedi she remembers her mother?

-For the most part I really liked look of the film regarding space battles etc.


-Palpatine is simply a genius, even down to perhaps sending Anakin to a place where he knew he was going to be crippled thus weakining him enough so he wouldn't threaten to supplant him but powerful enough to still be a bad a$$.

All in all I enjoyed it, however I only wish we could have seen in the prequels half the quality we saw in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings.

I still don't understand where all the criticism comes from about the dialogue, but I do admit that the Anakin/Padme scenes were bad, and I don't like the "NOOOOO" either. What's wrong with saying "You're breaking my heart?"

Avatar wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Another thing I thought was awesome in the book was Mace's unique way of interacting with the Force. (No time to quote right now, but later, if anyone's interested. )

Quote, Quote!

Damn your arm-twisting tactics!!!!!

OK, really big post here! First is Mace. I'll give a few more good quotes in my responses to Ainulindale. This is in the beginning, right after they "rescued" Palpatine, killed Dooku, and landed the heap of burning metal that used to be Grievous' ship:

And while Palpatine answered, Mace Windu reached into the Force.

To Mace's Force perception, the world crystallized around them, becoming a gem of reality shot through with flaws and fault lines of possibility. This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear places that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived - the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day - the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

Mace had supported the training of Anakin Skywalker, though it ran counter to millennia of Jedi tradition, because from the structure of fault lines in the Force around him, he had been able to intuit the truth of Qui-Gon Jinn's guess: that the young slave boy from Tatooine was in fact the prophesied chosen one, born to bring balance to the Force. He had argued for the elevation of Obi-Wan Kenobi to Mastership, and to give the training of the chosen one into the hands of this new, untested Master, because his unique perception had shown him powerful lines of destiny that bound their lives together, for good or ill. On the day of Palpatine's election to the Chancellorship, he had seen that Palpatine was himself a shatterpoint of unimaginable significance: a man upon whom might depend the fate of the Republic itself.

Now he saw the three men together, and the intricate lattice of fault lines and stress fractures that bound them each to the other was so staggeringly powerful that its structure was beyond calculation.

Anakin was somehow a pivot point, the fulcrum of a lever with Obi-Wan on one side, Palpatine on the other, and the galaxy in the balance, but the dark cloud on the Force prevented his perception from reaching into the future for so much as a hint of where this might lead. The balance was already so delicate that he could not guess the outcome of any given shift: the slightest tip in any direction would generate chaotic oscillation. Anything could happen.

Anything at all.

And the lattice of fault lines that bound all three of them to each other stank of the dark side.

Later, after Palpatine tells Anakin that he is Sidious (btw, he, Sidious, is the apprentice who killed Darth Plagueis the Wise), Anakin, who is falling down from extreme turmoil and exhaustion, asks Mace to only arrest Palpatine, not kill him. This is moments before Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is Sidious:

Mace reached into the Force, opening the eye of his special gift of perception-

What he found there froze his blood.

The tangled web of fault lines in the Force he had seen connecting Anakin to Obi-Wan and to Palpatine was no more; in their place was a single spider-knot that sang with power enough to crack the planet. Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatterpoints. He was a shatterpoint.

The shatterpoint.

Everything depended on him.

Everything.

Ainulindale wrote:-I liked the scenes of the Jedi being massacred in other campaigns around the galaxy.

Yes! That was powerful stuff!

Ainulindale wrote:--One of the best parts of the movie is when Yoda ran up in Palpatine's office and making short work of the guards.

Yep, the whole theater laughed.

Ainulindale wrote:-Anakins defeat by Obi (legs buring) was done much better than I thougth it was going to look like. I do have one question....wouldn't the proximity of the heat be somewhat unbearable, at least making one sweat more profusely, or is it so hot, does it evaporate instanttly:)?

I'm willing to assume the Jedi have some abilities like the Bene Gesserit, so they can probably adjust their metabolism. Or maybe just use the Force to keep the heat away? Heck, Anakin should have burned to death rather quickly, and I don't see what could have kept him alive other than his use of the Force.

Ainulindale wrote:I also wish there was some way they could have betterexplaiend Yoda's reasoning for retreating as they did in the book, becasue I think that's one of the biggest and most important elements in the mythos

Abolutely!!! I mentioned this before, and here's that part in the book:

There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-

didn't-

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

The had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last was.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

And later, we get a fantastic part, only mentioned in passing. When they're in hiding, just before Padme dies:

Beyond the transparent crystal of the observation dome on the airless crags of Polis Massa, the galaxy wheeled in a spray of hard, cold pinpricks through the veil of infinite night.

Beneath that dome sat Yoda. He did not look at the stars. He sat a very long time.

Even after nearly nine hundred years, the road to self-knowledge was rugged enough to leave him bruised and bleeding.

He spoke softly, but not to himself.

Though no one was with him, he was not alone.

"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."

He spoke to the Force.

And the Force answered him. Do not blame yourself, my old friend.

As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.

"Too old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago - but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not - because let it change, I did not."

More easily said than done, my friend.

"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."

And you will have time to learn it.

"Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."

With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time, even your physical self.

Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."

The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.

"Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."

It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.

Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."

He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.

The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.

"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."

Ainulindale wrote:-Most important. I LOVED the fact Bobba Fett played no role. Thank you George!

Yeah, I thought he was gonna kill Mace.

Ainulindale wrote:-Someone made a point about the death scenes being rather quick, having read the book its eve more evident, especially with Dooku, again hwoever, I'm not going ot fault it for not comapring it to the book. That said the Dooku duel was amazing by Stover.

Yes, the duel was amazing in the book! I particularly liked getting into the different styles being used, and how Obi-Wan and Anakin tricked Dooku by using diffferent styles at first. Anyway, what the movie did try to show, with a certain look on Dooku's face, as he heard Palpatine (who he knew to be Sidious) tell Anakin to kill him, was this:

Dooku, cringing, shrinking with dread, still finds some hope in his heart that he is wrong, that Palpatine has not betrayed him, that this has all been proceeding according to plan-

Until he hears "Good, Anakin! Good! I knew you could do it!" and registers this is Palpatine's voice and feels within the darkest depths of all he is the approach of the words that are to come next.

"Kill him," Palpatine says. "Kill him now."

In Skywalker's eyes he sees only flames.

"Chancellor, please!" he gasps, desperate and helpless, his aristocratic demeanor invisible, his courage only a bitter memory. He is reduced to begging for his life, as so many of his victims have. "Please, you promised me immunity! We had a deal! Help me!"

And his begging gains him a share of mercy equal to that which he has dispensed.

"A deal ony if you released me," Palpatine replies, cold as intergalactic space. "Not if you used me as bait to kill my friends."

And he knows, then, that all has indeed been going according to plan. Sidious's plan, not his own. This had been a Jedi trap indeed, but Jedi were not the quarry.

They were the bait.

"Anakin," Palpatine says quietly. "Finish him."

Years of Jedi training make Anakin hesitate; he looks down upon Dooku and sees not a Lord of the Sith but a beaten, broken, cringing old man.

"I shouldn't-"

But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizes that this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what he's been waiting for his whole life.

Permission.

And Dooku-

As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

His while life - all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith - have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this.

He has existed only for this.

This.

To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.

First but not, he knows, the last.

Then the blades crossed at this throat uncross like scissors.

Snip.

And all of him becomes nothing at all.

Ainulindale wrote:- Padme has a broken heart and had no reason to live thus died ......what about your kids????? Didn't Leia say in Return of the Jedi she remembers her mother?

I'd completely forgotten about that. Maybe she was talking about her adopted mother? Did Bail's wife die within a few years?

Thank you, Fist.

Yeah, Thanks. Great post.

--A

dlbpharmd wrote:I still don't understand where all the criticism comes from about the dialogue, but I do admit that the Anakin/Padme scenes were bad, and I don't like the "NOOOOO" either. What's wrong with saying "You're breaking my heart?"

Well he was breaking her heart... why are you bitching about her saying it? i agree with you dlb, there's nothing wrong with saying that...

And the "nooo"... I didn't think there was that much wrong with it being said so much as how he said it.... the tone was all wrong... if he did it and said it the right way, it could have been very powerful. Instead it did seem a bit lame.

The lightsaber duels ruled, I'm probably going to fall asleep watching lightsaber fights in the sequels.

And the "nooo"... I didn't think there was that much wrong with it being said so much as how he said it.

Oh, is that all? Nothing wrong with the phrase in movie except how he said it? What else matters? How he writes it?

Well he was breaking her heart... why are you bitching about her saying it? i agree with you dlb, there's nothing wrong with saying that...

First of all I'm not "bitching" about anything, secondly I pointed out a part of dialog I felt was rather out of place. I do not require you or anyone to tell me I am "bitching" about anything or to stop doing so, particulary someone who seems to think Empire Strikes Back is a bad film in comparison to the StarWars mythos. Such a person and I will simply not agree on many things in regards to the movie most likely.

If you don't agree that's fine, no need to even begin to think you are in some positon or possess some stature here that is unequal to anyone else to presume to tell me to stop giving my opinion in such a way void of any manners.

^^^^^^ I think he takes me too seriously.

Oh, and Ainulindale:

True, but we no doubt sometimes forget that not everybody, especially amongst our newer friends, has a fine appreciation of the role that you tend to play here.

We're used to you. And we know you don't generally mean any harm. Inevitable perhaps that some may not realise straight away.

--Avatar

dlbpharmd wrote:What's wrong with saying "You're breaking my heart?"

You could tell her heart was being broken by just observing the scene. Subtlety is more powerful and emotive than outright saying "You're breaking my heart." That line made my friends scoff when they heard it, and I can understand why. Lucas has to hit his fans over the head with a sledgehammer and go, "You know he's breaking her heart, right?" Duh, we know that. Think more of us, George.

Same goes for when Padme tells Anakin "I love you" outright in Attack of the Clones. That's about the most unromantic thing you can say in a love story, especially when there’s not a Han Solo to reply to the “love you" with an “I know”. Solo's "I know" redeems the gushiness, while at the same time showing an aspect of his character: the smuggler trying to preserve his unraveling badboy image. Genius moment. BUT, with Anakin, you have nothing like that, so you're left hanging in the overwrought sentimentality.

dlbpharmd wrote:I still don't understand where all the criticism comes from about the dialogue, but I do admit that the Anakin/Padme scenes were bad

If you thought the Anakin/Padme scenes were bad, then you understand all the criticism.

Maybe I simply fail to see the point. If you think you and someone you love is about to die, wouldn't that be a good time to say "I love you?" People tell each other that they love each other in every love movie I've ever seen, but it's a bad line in this one?

My point about the Anakin/Padme scenes being bad has less to do with the dialogue as the simple fact that there is no chemistry between the actors, so it's not believeable that they're truly in love. Where I do see the point about bad dialogue is the scene where Padme asks "So love has blinded you?" That made absolutely no sense to me.

I suppose that I'm simply an apologist for GL and the whole SW mythos, but I can honestly say that I think that much of the criticism is misplaced. Some people simply resent the fact that the prequel movies were made in the first place. Some people resent the changes that Lucas made to the OT. Whatever the case may be, it's very easy to criticize these movies, which frustrates me to no end, since these movies tell the story that I've wanted to hear for over 20 years now.

dlbpharmd wrote:Maybe I simply fail to see the point. If you think you and someone you love is about to die, wouldn't that be a good time to say "I love you?" People tell each other that they love each other in every love movie I've ever seen, but it's a bad line in this one?

It's not just the "I love you". Regardless of how you or I or other movies random movies use "I love you" to the nth degree, that doesn't cancel out the following stilted lines:

Anakin : "Don't be afraid."
Padme : "I'm not afraid to die. I've been dying a little bit each day since you came back into my life."
Anakin : "What are you talking about?"
Padme : "I love you."
Anakin : "You love me? I thought we had decided not to fall in love. That we'd be forced to live a lie and that it would destroy our lives."
Padme : "I think our lives are about to be destroyed anyway. I truly... deeply... love you and before we die I want you to know."

See those lines? That's what they called "overstated"; it's called "cornball beyond redemption". If you can't hear the dialogue flat-lining there, then there's no point in arguing further. I guess we'll just part our ways on this matter and accept our differing opinions.

dlbpharmd wrote:I suppose that I'm simply an apologist for GL and the whole SW mythos, but I can honestly say that I think that much of the criticism is misplaced. Some people simply resent the fact that the prequel movies were made in the first place. Some people resent the changes that Lucas made to the OT.

Not every criticism is fueled by petty resentment; there are well-founded, concise criticisms. For instance, read any of the reviews of Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones at rottentomatoes.com. And why suffer for Lucas? He doesn't care if people are crusading on his behalf. Heck, he doesn't care about the criticism himself! He made the movies he wanted to and he doesn't apologize; neither should you.

Don't worry, dlb, I'm with you. I just don't argue in some cases. I can list every bit of beauty and genius I find in Bach, Frank Miller, SRD, or Star Wars, and some people simply will not like them. Different strokes. And sometimes, the very things I love most about them are the things the other person says are the reason to not like them. heh

It's all good.

I loved it in spite of its flaws I loved RoTS(kind of how my wife loves me).This is the only one of the prequels that gave me a feeling of wonderment (like a child)-a feeling I have not felt since seeing TESB and RoTJ at the theater as a boy.I must admit that although I have not staged any light sabre battles with my children(yet)the thought has crossed my mind to try to coax a Mountain Dew to my hand from across the room .I came to a decision watching it for the second time at a drive in out under the stars to not nit pick and just to let myself enjoy it.Sure there are some stupid moments that make you wonder how they made it in the film-but hey all the Star Wars movies have them!I think that a large part of our dissapointment lies in the fact that we #1 are far more jaded since we saw the original trilogy and #2 we have the ORIGINAL TRILOGY to compare the films to-films made by a young,ambitious filmaker,full of fire and inspiration-groundbreaking stuff-could be Lucas would have been better off in taking an everything old is new again approach,making the prequels more retro in feel?But he chose to try to break new ground again,only to be headed off by Lord of the Rings,The Matrix movies etc,right now the ground to break is very spare.

Just to make the discussion nice and trivial again:

When Anakin fights Obi Wan both of them are using blue lightsabers, and Obi Wan is seen to take away Anakin's saber with him. Now if I recall correctly in Ep IV, when Obi Wan gives Luke his father's lightsaber, isn't it green?

No, Luke makes his own green lightsaber for Return of the Jedi...

Picture
Pale blue, it seems.