Where is God?
Moderator: Fist and Faith
Admittedly, it's a big hurdle to get over.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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wayfriend
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Indeed. If you decide to drop a book out of the Bible, what is the pattern of inspiration? God inspired someone to write it, and then inspired you to remove it again? (Did it, like, have limited shelf life?) Or are you removing something that was not inspired by God but got in somehow? (Does God, like, have a slow-working Quality Assurance Team?) Does God inspire King James to translate the Bible? Or does God jump in and say, well, if it's going to be translated, I better inspire some people?
Just saying ... these are my big hurdles.
My belief is: God inspires people, but he does not enable perfection in them for any reason. "In a flawed world perfection cannot endure." So I won't hold to the Bible being perfect.
And I won't hold with anyone who claims to be perfect in interpreting it.
Just saying ... these are my big hurdles.
My belief is: God inspires people, but he does not enable perfection in them for any reason. "In a flawed world perfection cannot endure." So I won't hold to the Bible being perfect.
And I won't hold with anyone who claims to be perfect in interpreting it.
.
Well put.Wayfriend wrote:And I won't hold with anyone who claims to be perfect in interpreting it.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Waaay back in my BA studies at Nazareth college in Michigan I took a class in comparative religion. One of the interesting things about the Bible is how different books of the Bible contain the SAME sermons of Jesus told slighly differently (I forget which ones.)
Biblical scholars use a process called redaction to try to filter out the political additions that were made by the apostles and their successors to cater to the issues of the day. So much for a LITERAL interpretation of the Bible!
[However, that's not to say the general message is not divinely inspired. That is an issue of faith!]
Biblical scholars use a process called redaction to try to filter out the political additions that were made by the apostles and their successors to cater to the issues of the day. So much for a LITERAL interpretation of the Bible!
[However, that's not to say the general message is not divinely inspired. That is an issue of faith!]
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
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Lord Mhoram
- Lord
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Written over 100 years ago.
Probably the best essay I've read, or will read, concerning the bible.
And so pertinent to this discussion.
www.infidels.org/library/historical/rob ... bible.html
Preachers who loved a good debate learned to fear his brilliant logic.
Robert Ingersoll.
What a giant of a man.
Probably the best essay I've read, or will read, concerning the bible.
And so pertinent to this discussion.
www.infidels.org/library/historical/rob ... bible.html
Preachers who loved a good debate learned to fear his brilliant logic.
Robert Ingersoll.
What a giant of a man.
Heh. Good stuff.IS THE OLD TESTAMENT INSPIRED?
If it is, it should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.
It should contain the perfection of philosophy.
It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.
There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.
Its morality should be the highest, the purest.
Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.
It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.
It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.
It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.
It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.
It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.
It should be true.
Does the Old Testament satisfy this standard?
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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Kinslaughterer
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Maybe the god of the Bible is just an lustful, angry, jealous, bigoted, inconsistent prick? Then the OT could still be divinely inspired...rimshot
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.
"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."
https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.
"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."
https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
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CovenantJr
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Though, as a cynical agnostic, I like that, I should point out something I insist on holding to in the event that God does exist:Plissken wrote:Heh. Good stuff.IS THE OLD TESTAMENT INSPIRED?
If it is, it should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.
It should contain the perfection of philosophy.
It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.
There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.
Its morality should be the highest, the purest.
Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.
It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.
It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.
It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.
It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.
It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.
It should be true.
Does the Old Testament satisfy this standard?
If there is this divine creator known as God, who are we to dictate what should be the case? Is it not an act of supreme arrogance to assume that our standards are the best ones? That what we consider good and bad qualities or failings are definitively so? If God exists and is all he is made out to be, how can we even attempt to comprehend, since he must by necessity be so far beyond us that the gesture would be futile?
If the God we're discussing does exist, then not only were we made in his image, but we were also instructed as to his values and ethics. In that case, if he doesn't live up to the standards he set out for us, he's not infallible - and therefore not the God that inspired the Bible.
(For my next trick, I plan to prove that black is white. Then I'm going to go hang out at the nearest zebra crossing.)
(For my next trick, I plan to prove that black is white. Then I'm going to go hang out at the nearest zebra crossing.)
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
Wrong. We were made in His image, but we were given freewill, and Satan is working his hardest to keep us from Him.Plissken wrote:If the God we're discussing does exist, then not only were we made in his image, but we were also instructed as to his values and ethics. In that case, if he doesn't live up to the standards he set out for us, he's not infallible - and therefore not the God that inspired the Bible.
CJ makes an excellent point.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Read it again Cail. I never said anything about our infallibility, implied a lack of free will, or mentioned Satan.
I said that if God doesn't live up to the standards we believe he's set out for us, there might be a problem...
I said that if God doesn't live up to the standards we believe he's set out for us, there might be a problem...
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
Ummm, you may want to re-read it and re-think it. Who are we as mere mortals to assign standards to God, or to assume that we understand Him?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Hey, I'm not saying what the problem is, I'm just saying that there may be a problem - and the heavy implication is that it lies with the folk who've been assuming that they've got this God person figured out (and calling other ideas on the subject heresy) for the last few thousand years.Cail wrote:Ummm, you may want to re-read it and re-think it. Who are we as mere mortals to assign standards to God, or to assume that we understand Him?
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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Kinslaughterer
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Better yet if these are the qualities expound by said diety, then why follow?
Rules and stories are written as the word of god then when they are questioned the orthodox reply that "Are you so arrogant to comprehend god? Can you understand them?"
Nope, but I can smell a con a mile away. And if god has standards I can't understand but still wonder about then he did a real crappy job creating me didn't he?
Oh, and I think "Satan" is our difficultly in rectifying our fairly new human intelligence with our ancestral instinct. Greed, anger, and lust are necessary for survival in the animal kingdom
Rules and stories are written as the word of god then when they are questioned the orthodox reply that "Are you so arrogant to comprehend god? Can you understand them?"
Nope, but I can smell a con a mile away. And if god has standards I can't understand but still wonder about then he did a real crappy job creating me didn't he?
Oh, and I think "Satan" is our difficultly in rectifying our fairly new human intelligence with our ancestral instinct. Greed, anger, and lust are necessary for survival in the animal kingdom
"We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and remember:X never, ever, marks the spot."
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.
"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."
https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
- Professor Henry Jones Jr.
"Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet."
https://crowcanyon.org/
support your local archaeologist!
It's an amazing thing.
My history of questioning the bible with believers has shown me an amazing thing. Most don't read it.
Oh, they say they do. But when you point out some astounding things attributed to the god of the bible , they don't know what you're talking about, and refuse to believe you.
Read it.
My history of questioning the bible with believers has shown me an amazing thing. Most don't read it.
Oh, they say they do. But when you point out some astounding things attributed to the god of the bible , they don't know what you're talking about, and refuse to believe you.
Read it.
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ChoChiyo
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Sadly, I think that many of the "religious" people I have the most difficulty with because of their extremely narrow and rigid focus either read the Bible is small, very selective snippets--or they depend on some charismatic zealot to read and interpret it for them.Dromond wrote:It's an amazing thing.
My history of questioning the bible with believers has shown me an amazing thing. Most don't read it.
Oh, they say they do. But when you point out some astounding things attributed to the god of the bible , they don't know what you're talking about, and refuse to believe you.
Read it.
Therein lies the problem.
I have read the Bible cover to cover--many times.
There are parts of it that I find EXTREMELY disturbing.
Such as the part about smashing the heads of the babies of the enemies of the Israelites against the rocks. And killing every living thing--man, woman, child, cow, goat, EVERYTHING.
That is EXTREMELY disturbing to me, and I have to believe that GOD didn't want that.
Empress Cho hammers the KABC of Evil.
"If Ignorance is Bliss, Ann Coulter must be the happiest woman in the universe!"
Take that, you Varlet!
And yet he had people put to death when they didn't kill everything in sight. Perhaps you're just imposing your own love of compassion and hatred of needless violence on this god, Cho.
Pretty insensitive of you, if you ask me.
Pretty insensitive of you, if you ask me.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw