Kevin's Watch

No apology necessary, you make a good point in return.

You do however touch on another point that has always bothered me about christianity. For their own good.

Of course, I understand the reasoning, because god doesn't want anybody to "suffer the lack of his presence," but so many terrible things have been justified in the name of "for their own good" (many by christians) that I'm automatically suspicious. Nobody knows what is good for me but myself, and even if I'm wrong, it's still up to me.

Once could argue that "for our own good" is actually for the good of god, who, it sometimes appears, simply wants more believers, and which ties in nicely with my idea that not only does belief create gods, but that they depend on it.

--A

Had to edit my post some...I make so little sense at this hour, even to myself. *rueful grin*

Heh...dunno if I'll make any sense explaining this, either, but I'll try (then I'll go to bed).

See, the way I see it is that God doesn't "simply want more believers" for the sake of having more believers. If one puts their trust in God, they enter heaven, and therefore do not perish. God doesn't want people to perish, but wants them to be saved...would you want your children (if you had any) to perish?

Also, as a Christian, I believe that God knows what is good for me far better than I do, because He does not have my limited, human, faulty perception.

That's not to say that I don't see where you're coming from *grin* I just have this thing with explaining things (and sometimes over-explaining things to the point of confusion, like I did before).

Agh, need sleep. I'm rambling.

Iryssa wrote:God doesn't want people to perish, but wants them to be saved...would you want your children (if you had any) to perish?

God wants that no man should die? Sure, I wouldn't want my children to die either. But I wouldn't want them to die regardless of what they did. It seems that god wants nobody to die provided that they believe in him, (and in the christian tradition) if they have submitted to the will of god and been saved.

If he truly wanted no man to die, wouldn't nobody die?

He wants them to be "saved." In other words, worship him.

--A

Iryssa wrote:Also, as a Christian, I believe that God knows what is good for me far better than I do, because He does not have my limited, human, faulty perception.

Beautiful way of thinking Iryssa. That pretty much sums up the whole argument.

A tough one to argue politley against. But its an assumption, isn't it? It is, in fact, something that ou have to take on faith. Which is fair enough of course.

Personally, I'd want to know how people know that? How they know that he knows what is best, how they know that his perception isn't flawed.

I know. You have to believe it.

--A

Avatar wrote:A tough one to argue politley against. But its an assumption, isn't it? It is, in fact, something that ou have to take on faith. Which is fair enough of course.

Personally, I'd want to know how people know that? How they know that he knows what is best, how they know that his perception isn't flawed.

I know. You have to believe it.

--A

True, you have to take it on some measure of faith...but I've also learned it through experience. For example, if I had behaved in a way acceptable to God (as explained in the Bible), I could have saved myself a world of pain from my last relationship. Maybe I needed to learn that lesson...who knows. But if I could go back and spare myself the devastation I let happen, I would.


As for God's will that no man should die:
Sin can't come into God's presence...I don't know if it can be put into human terms, but basically, God is SO holy and perfect that sin just can't enter heaven. It's one of those divine laws that cannot be broken. God made a way that everyone could be saved, though; he sent his only begotten son to make a once and for all sacrifice for all sin. That wouldn't have been an easy thing to do, either...the sacrifice Christ made was one of the most agonizing things a human being could go through...and He was the only one that didn't deseve it. The only thing is that it needs to be accepted...the only way God could force everyone to accept it is to take away Free Will, and who would want that?
Anyway, that's what I believe.

Iryssa wrote:True, you have to take it on some measure of faith...but I've also learned it through experience. For example, if I had behaved in a way acceptable to God (as explained in the Bible), I could have saved myself a world of pain from my last relationship. Maybe I needed to learn that lesson...who knows. But if I could go back and spare myself the devastation I let happen, I would.

But would that behaviour, whatever it was, have been acceptable in a seccular world view? Naturally, we percieve different lessons inherent in it.

Iryssa wrote:As for God's will that no man should die:
Sin can't come into God's presence...I don't know if it can be put into human terms, but basically, God is SO holy and perfect that sin just can't enter heaven. It's one of those divine laws that cannot be broken. God made a way that everyone could be saved, though; he sent his only begotten son to make a once and for all sacrifice for all sin. That wouldn't have been an easy thing to do, either...the sacrifice Christ made was one of the most agonizing things a human being could go through...and He was the only one that didn't deseve it. The only thing is that it needs to be accepted...the only way God could force everyone to accept it is to take away Free Will, and who would want that?
Anyway, that's what I believe.

If all sin was forgiven by that sacrifice, then why is repentance, atonement and forgiveness so important?

And we're again applying human motivation to a concept of god here, in assuming that it wasn't an easy thing to do. It wouldn't have been for a human, sure enough, but does that automatically mean it was the same for god? If god is unknowable, then do we not presume greatly to understand his motivations?

Oh yeah, if it's a divine law, doesn't that mean that god made it so? Which means he deliberately made it so that no sin could enter in his presence. Perhaps we could posit that god cannot break that law, but then we equally must assume that he wanted it that way, for his own reasons.

This is a tough one, and I know I'm not being all that clear, 'cause I'm in a rush. Hope it makes enough sense for now though. And a pleasure having you back to join our discussions.

--A