Random thought on the new Staff of Law

[Nerdanel]

I'm not at all sure that there was even one Elohim that was completely unaffected by Kevin's Dirt. Not even one of them sounded that much like the First Chronicles descriptions.

But I think Vain may also have been a somewhat not-quite-right creation, or a right creation in a sense the good guys weren't expecting. I've been thinking about the Weird of the Waynhim and the ur-viles. I'm thinking that maybe the Demondim, being unhappy to be what amounts to living dead, had made the Weird to be a command to find a harmony with the world and its Laws, or something to that effect. The Waynhim strived to serve the Law, while the ur-viles took a radically different approach, constantly using unharmonious means while striving to a distant end.

Now to the theory: I think that just like the ur-viles made Vain obey Covenant just one time, getting rid of the Sunbane was a similar sweetener to make the good guys cooperate with the ur-viles' purpose (and remove the inconvenient Lord Foul from the picture while doing it). Would the ur-viles have REALLY committed genocide when they only suspected that the Waynhim MIGHT have told Covenant about the secret plan to provide essential materials for the new Staff of Law so that the world could be healed just like Covenant wanted it to be. The revealed purpose of Vain was surprising, but it shouldn't have been that distasteful to Covenant. Remember that the Demondim-spawn had been able to tolerate each other for quite a while, and the ur-viles had let their new-made Waynhim depart peacefully, so the ur-vile reaction was really rather extreme.

My best guess is that the ur-viles have far-reaching plans involving the Staff of Law. In Runes the ur-viles were searching for the Staff even before they met Linden and I don't think they did it out of altruism. Going on a limb here, I would find it entirely conceivable that the ur-viles are planning to wield the Staff of Law themselves and change the structure of the Law itself to something more of their liking. Drool was in trouble because the old Staff wasn't made for his hand and he misused it. The ur-viles may have made Vain more accommodating and by extension - Findail part regardless - the entire Staff.

Of course, this would mean that the ur-viles managed to outsmart the Dead. I think this could be possible on the principle that the Dead saw Vain's purpose and failed to consider if he might have had an additional, deeper purpose much later in the future. If the Creator managed to overlook things, why not the Dead? And it's not like Kevin was all-knowing as Dead, as he demonstrated to Linden.

One needs to remember that if the Staff of Law is alive in some fashion it may not decide to do what its maker intended. Once again, perhaps Linden could here be likened to the Creator not initally noticing that his Creation had hidden banes within it. If a god can overlook that., why not Linden? On the other hand, the Staff of Law may decide to do something the ur-viles did not intend either. I wonder if the Staff has free will. It may be that it has, if the plot point about tools being less effective has relevance here. Vain and Findail were very different entities, but neither was truly benevolent - Findail was amoral and Vain just followed orders - and the end result of their melding could be unpredictable indeed.

The Last Chronicles will certainly have room for some heavy philosophisizing.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Nerdanel, first, I LOVE throwing my thoughts out there too.
It's a lot of fun.
But I think that you're giving the ur-Viles too much credit.

If the Demondim made the ur-Vile's Weird then the Vile's made the Demondim's?
I always looked at it as a Weird was created *by* the creatures not *for* them.
Although it is pretty strange that the ur-viles and the Elohim all use similar words like Weird, Worm (I don't have the books in front of me)
What are the odds of that?


I also find it hard to believe that Findail wouldn't know *everything* there was to know about Vain and expose it to save himself before Linden "melded" them.
It seemed like everyone knew what Vain's purpose was except Linden and Covenant (and me!)
I mean, just how damn powerful are these Ur-Viles that they would know or even suspect what the end result would be with Vain?
How were they able to communicate with or summon the Dead to give Vain to Foamfollower?

[Variol Farseer]

Although it is pretty strange that the ur-viles and the Elohim all use similar words like Weird, Worm (I don't have the books in front of me)
What are the odds of that?

I just did some looking around in the American Heritage Dictionary, which does a good job at etymologies. Here's what I discovered:

Oddly enough, the English words 'weird' and 'worm' both derive from the same Indo-European root, *wer-, meaning to turn or bend. A Weird, meaning a fate or destiny, is 'the way things turn out' — which gives you some idea how old the expression 'turn out' must be.

The Anglo-Saxon spelling is wyrd. In Anglo-Saxon, the letter Y was used for the sound represented in German by Ü, so Würd is a possible German spelling of the Anglo-Saxon word — though there seems to be no such word in German.

Even odder, 'word' (which is one of Linden's guesses at what Würd meant) derives from a different Indo-European root, but that root is also reconstructed as *wer-. There are at least five homonyms in that set. The ones I know of mean roughly: (1) to lift or hold up; (2) to turn or bend; (3) to perceive or watch out for; (4) to cover; (5) to speak. It must have been even more confusing than their/they're/there. 'Ward' and 'Lord', by the way, are both derived from #3: good SRD-type stuff, that. 'Warn' comes from #4, so a Word of Warning . . . but enough of that.

So if it's all a coincidence, it's built into the whole system of Indo-European languages. You could almost say that SRD was resurrecting a 5000-year-old pun, and finding, by sheer serendipity, that it still works as a pun in modern English. Given his academic background in English, and his at least occasional habit of picking up ideas from Indian philosophy (which almost forces you to learn some Sanskrit), I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he knew all this stuff about *wer- and used it deliberately.

Compared to all that, the use of the same word by both ur-viles and Elohim hardly seems strange at all.

[Xar]

But I think Vain may also have been a somewhat not-quite-right creation, or a right creation in a sense the good guys weren't expecting. [...] Now to the theory: I think that just like the ur-viles made Vain obey Covenant just one time, getting rid of the Sunbane was a similar sweetener to make the good guys cooperate with the ur-viles' purpose (and remove the inconvenient Lord Foul from the picture while doing it). Would the ur-viles have REALLY committed genocide when they only suspected that the Waynhim MIGHT have told Covenant about the secret plan to provide essential materials for the new Staff of Law so that the world could be healed just like Covenant wanted it to be. The revealed purpose of Vain was surprising, but it shouldn't have been that distasteful to Covenant. Remember that the Demondim-spawn had been able to tolerate each other for quite a while, and the ur-viles had let their new-made Waynhim depart peacefully, so the ur-vile reaction was really rather extreme.

I don't think so. Yes, the revealed purpose of Vain shouldn't have been a problem for Covenant (well, apart maybe from the possible distaste of taking two creatures and melding them into a staff), but if the Waynhim had revealed Vain's purpose to Covenant, would Covenant had gone to the One Tree? I doubt it. Perhaps the Ur-viles knew that Vain needed to be "seeded" by the One Tree to become an effective staff, but there is no mention that the Waynhim knew that as well - they only knew Vain's purpose, so it is likely they would have told Covenant about that only. So, Covenant would have not set sail for the One Tree - who knows indeed whether he would have even gone to the Elohim? (Did the knowledge of the Waynhim allow them to realize Vain would need an Elohim to become the staff?)

Of course, if he had not gone to the One Tree, he wouldn't have produced the staff, so the whole purpose of Vain's existence would have been for nothing. And the ur-viles had bet all they had left on Vain's purpose, since they knew they were doomed. So, from this point of view, I can see them panic at the thought that Covenant had been told Vain's purpose and at the possibility that he wouldn't know he would need to visit the One Tree. If they thought that even their last effort was for nothing... well, murderous rage is a natural consequence of such a stressful situation.

[...]
Of course, this would mean that the ur-viles managed to outsmart the Dead. I think this could be possible on the principle that the Dead saw Vain's purpose and failed to consider if he might have had an additional, deeper purpose much later in the future. If the Creator managed to overlook things, why not the Dead? And it's not like Kevin was all-knowing as Dead, as he demonstrated to Linden.[...]

Kevin was even more blind than most of the Dead, because he was blinded by his own despair. Not only the despair of the Ritual of Desecration, but also (I think) the despair at the thought that he was the tool with which the Law of Death had been broken. He could only see Covenant's actions through the filter of despair - hence, only in their bleakest way. If he had not been so blinded by despair he would have realized for example, that Covenant giving the ring to Foul was not necessarily a bad thing (as we saw in the end).

One needs to remember that if the Staff of Law is alive in some fashion it may not decide to do what its maker intended. Once again, perhaps Linden could here be likened to the Creator not initally noticing that his Creation had hidden banes within it. If a god can overlook that., why not Linden? On the other hand, the Staff of Law may decide to do something the ur-viles did not intend either. I wonder if the Staff has free will. It may be that it has, if the plot point about tools being less effective has relevance here. Vain and Findail were very different entities, but neither was truly benevolent - Findail was amoral and Vain just followed orders - and the end result of their melding could be unpredictable indeed.

I would not say that Findail was completely amoral. I would rather say that he was jaded, and a firm believer in the concept of "the end justifies the means". That seems to be the main concept of the Elohim, who after all see themselves as superior creatures to all others, and therefore probably find it difficult to consider humans (or Giants) as something even remotely approaching them as peers. I always got the idea that the Elohim consider mortals to be akin to pets, or perhaps small children - the kind of relationship in which you feel comfortable in deciding what they should do, because they obviously can't know any better than you.

[finn]

I wonder if we're not missing the point here.....

The book is titled the "Runes of the Earth" not the Runes of the Staff or the Runes of Linden's Trousers.

The Runes of the Earth are (IMO) the story of the earth set in stone if you will, that is able to be read by those so attuned; in the case of this volume, Anile. This story is a catalogue laid down like growth rings in a tree, into the very rock of the Earth such that it cannot be interpreted or misinterpreted, it is fact: pure and simple.

It might be important as language of the Earth, it's Word or Wurd or Wierd if you like, which in turn may be "graven in every rock"........ sound familiar? Like Wild Magic?

The Runes of the Earth may be more that just what Anile 'reads' they could be be the basic language of Earthpower, Wild Magic, a catalogue of all the power available in the land, there to be read by those skilled enough...unfettered enough perhaps?

I'm feeling that the staff discussion regarding its lack of Runes, is a red herring. Also I agree with Xar's comments on Findail and Vain, I have always seen the staff as the bringing together of opposites, Black and White, Order and Chaos etc. SRD is all about the power of the paradox and the staff embodies this.

[Aleksandr]

Re: My best guess is that the ur-viles have far-reaching plans involving the Staff of Law.

And what about the Waynhim? Were they also fooled by the Ur-Viles secret purpose or did they perceive it in Vain and also agree with it, in effect lying to Covenant when they told him that Vain was harmless an his purpose was desirable? I’m attracted to the notion that the Ur-Viles were up to something, since the Elohim certainly had a problem with the plan, and that problem went deeper than just Findail’s personal fear of “death”. But we have to account for the Waynhim here. Either the Waynhim are ignorant or they are on board—and in either case why would the Ur-Viles destroy them?

Re: …both derive from the same Indo-European root, *wer-, meaning to turn or bend.

Also, the German verb “werden”, “to become” and the Latinate “-vert” in “revert”, “divert”, etc.

[wayfriend]

"This only I am permitted to say: were I to reveal the purpose of this Demondim-spawn, that revelation could well prevent the accomplishment of his purpose." Bamako's face held a look of supplication. "That purpose is greatly desirable."

This does sound suspicious on the face of it. How could Covenant knowing of Vain's use in creating a new Staff of Law prevent the Staff from being created? Maybe there's something else going on?

The dead thought it unwise to reveal it as well.

However, Hamako gives reasoning that may be sufficient.

"This is the paradox of lore, that it must be achieved rather than granted, else it misleads."

Consider: If Covenant had known about Vain's purpose, what would have happened on Bare Isle? Would an Elohim have volunteered to journey with the Quest if they knew that Covenant knew about Vain? Would they even have allowed him to depart Elemesnedene? The Elohim are too powerful for Covenant to coerce. And Covenant didn't know about them; he might not have known the need to keep it a secret from them until to late.

Therefore, I see no need to see a purpose in Vain beyond the Staff of Law.

[finn]

Agreed Wayfriend. I think that had TC known of Vain's purpose he may have done a number of things including making a judgement as to whether Vain was 'fit' for the task or if the Demondim's motivation was pure, without having learned and earned (now there's an etymological similarity!) the knowledge to make such a judgement.

So if he thought the Staff was able to be made other than from the One Tree, he may not have journeyed beyond the Land's borders at all. He and Linden may have not gone to Elemesnedene or journeyed to the One Tree, which would not have allowed the Haruchai to challenge and then to become aware of, the role played by them in assuming the mantle of guardianship.

The Haruchai's action have far reaching consequences, the Blood Vow lasting so long and the consequences of it's breaking, are still echoing in the Haruchai psyche as is the fact that Brinn 'lost' his fight, despite winning. These are lessons that the Haruchai are still having trouble coming to terms with and that process is still unfolding in Runes and the Last Chronicles.

It also allowed us to be introduced to Nom, the Arguleh, the Croyel, the Merewives, etc, etc. all of whom may yet play a significant part. It allowed the relationship between TC and Linden to develop and also showed Linden the responsibility of cause and consequence, possession and breaking or earning of trust.

On another note, the Demondim are creatures of Law and the making of a staff to strengthen and re-inforce the Law is in their interests from a survival standpoint; as the Law breaks down so does their ability to make their way in the world. Thus their motivation is aligned with ensuring the strength and integrity of the Staff, even if once Law and Order is restored they then fight for another cause.

[Nerdanel]

The ur-viles and the Waynhim (the Demondim weren't around at the time we are talking about, but I suppose this applies to them too) depend on the Law to live but aren't really creatures of it. For example, they are harmed and eventually killed by the mere proximity of the Staff of Law, the same proximity that makes grasses and flowers bloom especially verdantly. So I think the ur-viles would like to have A Law, just not the original Law, if they had any say in the matter. With the making of a Staff of Law component they might indeed have some influence on things.

I think if the ur-viles wanted to be honest they could just have told Covenant the truth and said that to become the Staff Vain would need to visit the One Tree. Of course this sounds a little redundant in the light of what Covenant would do without Vain, but a backup plan is always nice, right? As for Covenant having doubts about Vain's suitability to be the Staff, perhaps the ur-viles didn't want to give any rise to them, since they would have been justified. But in the end, it's not like Covenant would have had any other options if he wanted a Staff of Law to beat the Sunbane with.

And then we have the detail that most likely the ur-viles committed their genocide AFTER Covenant had departed for the One Tree, unless they were in a massive hurry and couldn't even wait to see what Covenant would do next. (When I get to this part I can check what it says about the timing.)

I think the Elohim recognized Vain's purpose and didn't like it one bit because one of them would be needed to fulfill it. They Appointed Findail for it, though.

[xiomburg]

Why did vain or TC need to visit the tree. The ur-viles and the Waynhim knew that Linden Avery had never seen the Staff of Law or the components to take on such an undertaking.

LA needed to see the tree to understand what it is and what she needed to do. She would never have been able to create the Staff of Law without seeing it, or lands that had not been spoiled by the Sunbane.

TC tried to do this himself, not understanding that he lacked the sight to create the tree, as the Staff of Law can not be simply slapped together. It is an ideal and faith merged into the structure of the land.

The ur-viles and the Waynhim understood this, the Waynhim understood that LA was going to make the staff.

Just my opinion...

[High Lord Tolkien]

Why did vain or TC need to visit the tree. The ur-viles and the Waynhim knew that Linden Avery had never seen the Staff of Law or the components to take on such an undertaking.

LA needed to see the tree to understand what it is and what she needed to do. She would never have been able to create the Staff of Law without seeing it, or lands that had not been spoiled by the Sunbane.

TC tried to do this himself, not understanding that he lacked the sight to create the tree, as the Staff of Law can not be simply slapped together. It is an ideal and faith merged into the structure of the land.

The ur-viles and the Waynhim understood this, the Waynhim understood that LA was going to make the staff.

Just my opinion...

Actually, Vain *HAD* to visit the One Tree.
He *HAD* to be struck by it as well.
SRD said so in the Gradual Interview (see links on KW main page).
I had no clue that Vain had to.
I thought the whole point of leaving the Land was just to find Findail.
SRD said it was one of those things that he thought was obvious but later found out (talking to fans?) that no one else did.

[Sunbaneglasses]

Has anyone considered the possibility of an event happening that could undo the new Staff of Law,thus splitting Vain and Findail once again into two seperate beings?And what would be the fall out of an angry Findail and a purposeless Vain?

You cant unstir cofee and cream...the Staff would shatter or burn up i would think before it would disassociate into its original component parts.

Hahaha,if it happens I am going to say "I told you so" and in the likely event that it does not I will say "well it was just a radom thought".I can't lose And the bonus is I have a topic at three pages and still going!I'm king of the world!