Prayer in public schools and the Pledge

[birdandbear]

Skyweir - I couldn't agree more.

I do not ascribe to any religion, but I fully support religious freedom. It doesn't bother me if someone wants to pray - in my presence or out of it - as long as I'm not pressured to join in. Telling someone they're not allowed to pray in school, or anywhere else, is religious oppression. Of course, I don't believe in forcing someone to pray who doesn't want to either. But there is no reason someone who wishes to pray privately, or even in a small private group, should not be allowed to pray on campus. It's in the constitution man! Freedom of religion. Ostensibly one of the founding precepts of this country. If it makes you uncomfortable to see someone pray, that's your problem - not theirs. By the same token, if it makes you uncomfortable to see two men holding hands - your problem. In either case, no one is trying to convert anyone else, only doing what they feel is right for them.

As far as the word "God"in the Pledge of alliegence goes - to me snarling over that's as stupid as a feminist who flies into a rage if a man opens a door for her. It's just a word. Just a door. We have bigger problems. If you don't like it, skip that part.

With all that's going on in the world today, the amount of time people spend quibbling over political correctness when we could be helping each other instead astounds me. We have these terrifying weapons of mass destruction, abuse, rascism, hunger, poverty - human misery and suffering surrounds us on all sides while we're arguing over who gets the biggest piece of pie.

Who cares about prayer in schools when organizations like the kkk still legally exist?

Whatever these people are praying about in their schools, churches, offices, whatever - I hope it's us.

And Bannor - you remind me of my father. He also is a devout christian. He and my mother are some of the few I've met who atually believe what they say they do, and have the courage to live accordingly. We do not agree that it's the only way to live, and we've had some killer arguments about it. But living by faith is a difficult way to live, requiring both courage and humility - and I respect my parents immensely for having the courage of their convictions. As I respect you for the same reasons. God bless you Sir.

[fightingmyinstincts]

*applauds all* I love a good debate, don't y'all?
I don't think we need even a period of silence. If I want to pray I'll do it at home; prayer at school....have y'all ever been to school? You know how constructive that would be...and as for the Pledge of Allegiance...I do think the God part should be taken out, just because it's supposed to Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG, dammit...you can't make something godly out of patriotism when we worship different gods but live in the same country...it's just unrelated to the overall concept in my opinion...I Pledge Allegiance to the Higher Powers in a separate breath than I do to my country...Not all Americans agree with the God part, so the pledge that should apply to all Americans should not include it. Like the Flag needs my allegiance anyway...I don't fight, I don't do anything, and I agree people are wasting time on things like this when there are more important issues than PCness...
And the ten commandments, that's just wrong. If you want to put up some kind of moral exhortation to righteousness, hey that might actually be a good idea...but why not the Buddhist one? The eightfold path or whatever, ( ) you know, Right Thinking, Right Speech, Right Conduct, Right Livelihood, Right Understanding, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration....Those sound ok, right? Or make a new one...the fact that it's just automatically the Christian way that gets chosen whenever someone feels a need to inject some spirituality in something just galls me....(Did I get that eightfold path right?)
So what if Christians form a majority. I'm sick of hearing that. Majority rules and screw everyone else isn't supposed to be America's ethic....the impression I get from the political Christian majority is that they're working around the nonconformist evil heretics like me for a Christian country...that's what it seems like they think, that only Christians count. Was it Pat Buchanan or some other idiot like him that, when asked at an abortion rally "What about all the babies dying in Africa from starvation?" replied in an apoplectic rage, spittle flying from his lips, "I'm talking about unborn CHRISTIAN babies!" Oh, I get it now. (Anyone ever read one of Buchanan's books, they're funny: "Our melting pot has become a salad bowl." That's what he says about the US...)
Anyway, enough ranting,: No prayer; that belongs at home. No god in the Pledge, that belongs in a different pledge that also does not belong in school. No commandments, there are less discriminatory ways of saying the same things. That's all I have to say on that right now and boy was it a bunch.

[Bannor]

Thank you BirdandBear. God bless you as well. Your parents sound like wonderful people. (And you don't sound bad yourself.)

[birdandbear]

I like to think I'm a pretty nice person - for a damned heathen.

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Voltaire

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think I've ever been called obnoxious before,

You still haven't. I only called the statement obnoxious. I wouldn't base my entire opinion of you on that one sentence. You do have a few hundred other posts, after all.

We often hear that relgion has no place in the education system .. and prayer has no place in the education system .. but it is a fundamental part of human social and cultural history .. and religion means many things to many people.

Throughout history religion has always been indigenous to human experience ..

In todays world .. the future generations are denied an understanding of the role of 'religion' .. in the pursuit of political correctness.

Absolutely!! I think things like religion, spirituality, and psychology should be a part of everybody's education. We learn the "hard" sciences, like math and science, and spend much time on learning the "proper" ways of using languages. Why don't we think understanding ourselves is important? At least when we get out of grammar and syntax, and start studying literature, we get into the human condition to some degree. But only barely. No attempt is made to understand basic human needs and fears. We are told that a group called Christians did this and that, and people called Muslims did these other things, etc. But almost nothing is said about what those religions believe, and no attempt is made to compare the beliefs, nor to understand the human need for religion. It's one of the top few human drives, but we'd better not say the "R" word in public!!!

[Bannor]

I suppose semantics could come into play with your statement. I prefer to think that a man is what he says, but I may be in the minority in that way-of-thinking. I decided a long time ago that there would be very few people that I would empower to affect my emotions. I hold no hard feelings and count you as a friend here at the Watch. May God bless and keep you.

[Fist and Faith]

I agree, to an extent. I think a man is what he says on the whole. Good people say things that aren't nice now and again. We all get tired, have bad days, and all that. But I wouldn't say that anybody who ever insulted someone else is bad. Just as I don't think Hitler was a good person just because I saw a video clip of him smiling and petting a dog. I think the whole picture needs to be looked at.

[Bannor]

Probably true in most cases. Reminds me of a quote that I'll try to get right: the real measure of a person is how he/she behaves when no one is looking. I tell that to my students all the time (Then I pray silently in my classroom that they heed those wise words).

[Fist and Faith]

I've always liked that concept. Although it means different things for you and me, since you think that, even if no human is looking, God is.


birdandbear,
I always preface things like what I'm about to say with something like, "I know that what an atheist thinks of this is kinda unimportant, but...." It seems to me that, from a certain perspective, those who truly believe their faith don't need courage. Have you seen Chariots of Fire? Eric Liddell was in what most people would consider a high-pressure situation. Some important people - including his future king! - were trying to convince him to act against his beliefs. But his beliefs told him that these men had no significant power over him. The worst they would likely have done to him was kick him out of the olympic games. But, ultimately, he would have lived an eternal life of infinite joy and love. Which would probably make much more severe punishments seem insignificant.

Of course, I know it's not always that easy. Even with the promise of that kind of afterlife, we're still physical creatures, and pain often hurts. It's hard to fault anyone who doesn't have the courage to stand up to torture for their faith.

[Skyweir]

I agree!! people arent the sum total of what they tell us they are .. Integrity is an enviable quality .. integrity is a state of mind that forms the basis from which all actions are taken.

god if we believed a man is what he says he is .. then I'd be praising Hussein .. who claimed his own goodness ..

we are .. how we think .. and most telling .. we are what we do .. !when no one is looking <as our man Bannor said>!

[birdandbear]

pain often hurts

Fist - You've touched on something I'd love to get into an in depth discussion on, but I think it's too far off topic here. I'm starting a new thread 'cause I'd like to discuss the nature of faith, assuming anyone else is up for it.