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Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:34 am
by Durris
Fist and Faith wrote:
Cail wrote:
As to the exact nature of the Vow, I don't know. The Haruchai are incredibly passionate, and it would seem that they should go to any length to keep the Lords alive. However, their credo "Fist and Faith", would seem to run contrary to the Vow. If Tuvor could have done his job better with a sword, should he have? Who knows. This is part of the enigma of the Bloodguard.
The way they limit themselves in this way is frustrating at times. But, ultimately (at the end of the day? ), I view such things as a package deal. In Chariots of Fire, Eric Liddell, among the greatest runners in the world, would not race in the Olympic qualifier because it was being held on Sunday. His belief is that the sabbath is God's day. Various powerful people, including the Prince of Wales, tried to convince him that this was sufficiently important to deny his beliefs. But he would not back down.
The Haruchai passion, honor, extravagence, and Fist and Faith mindset, all go together. Change one, and the others will likely change too. So if they used weapons, they might also be a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s. If Hesse wasn't crazy enough to be sent to an asylum, would he have been the writer he was?
I've long felt that the
Haruchai refusal of lore and weaponry (yes, Cail, it is infringed upon a few times; those are exceptions that prove the rule, perhaps) is at core about means and ends. Early in LFB Bannor says (something like; I can't find the exact quote right now) "Any weapon may turn on the hand that wields it." Any means that was separable from themselves could be turned against their purpose, so they forswore the use of all such.
Unfortunately, this was not as seamless a protection as expected; Foul finds a way to separate them even from
themselves.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:13 am
by Fist and Faith
It makes me wonder if they were messing with weapons or lore in their ancient past, and something REALLY BAD happened. So bad that they initially made a law forbidding such things, which eventually developed into their mindset.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:47 am
by Cail
Fist wrote:No. But I thought that you thought that they thought they were when you said, "The Bloodguard failed to protect Kevin from his despair." They didn't fail to protect him from his despair, because they never said they would.
Man that's confusing for a Friday night when the Pitchbrew's flowing.
What I was implying was that the Bloodguard held themselves responsible for the Desecration (and Kevin's death), which was the result of Kevin's despair. This happened because they followed Kevin's direction, not the Vow.
Excellent analogy with
Chariots of Fire. I was a runner 20 some odd years ago, and that's still one of my favorite movies. And, *fractional bow*, thank you for clarifying the quote.
Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:58 am
by Cail
Durris quoth:But the Giants the five commanders met when first arriving at Revelstone had been one of the inspirations for the Vow, one of the many things that, coming at them all at once, made them need to belong to "all this" completely and forever. To put it in Covenant's terms, the Giants were a major "seduction" of the Land where the Haruchai were concerned.
Be that as it may (and I completely agree with you here Durris), the Vow was to protect the lives of the Lords, not the Giants. The
haruchai are unbelievably passionate, as we know from the beat-down Tull got when he showed his emotions about the plight of the Giants. They were very unhappy about the prospect of there being a problem with the Giants, but that (in my overly judgemental
Haruchai mind) does not give them an excuse to abandon the Vow.
Then again, you make a good point about the Giant's Landservice being similar to the Bloodguard's.
What's sort of creepy about the whole thing is that Durris was ready to swear yet another Vow in WGW.
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:21 am
by Haruchai
*bows deeply* I would have to say that this is the best forum I have read yet. Are you guys really human beings? Or Haruchai in disguise? You have an answer for everything!
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:30 am
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
(Five years later, here, lol!)
When, exactly was the Vow broken? Was it in the first Chrons?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:20 am
by Durris
Jacob Raver, yes, it happened in the First Chronicles.
The actual event occurred in the interim between The Illearth War and The Power that Preserves, although causally it's an inevitable done deal after Tull's Tale is told in the former book. (Mhoram dreams of Bloodguard fighting for the Despiser right before Tull arrives, until Terrel wakes him--Lord! Corruption will see you!--and Tull narrates Lord Hyrim trying unsuccessfully with his dying breath to warn Korik and co. not to touch the Illearth Stone. Once the Stone had been taken in hand, it could not be prevented from working its inverse alchemy. One critic, William Senior, describes it as turning the Vow's gold into lead.)
Mhoram explains to Covenant early in TPTP that the Bloodguard have been lost, how, and why. In the manner of the most searing events of Greek tragedy, it happens off stage and we readers learn it after the fact.
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:26 pm
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
I thought the Vow was broken because there was no one worthy of it?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:52 pm
by rdhopeca
jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I thought the Vow was broken because there was no one worthy of it?
The Vow was broken when the Bloodguard realized that it did not protect them from being made to serve Corruption.
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:48 pm
by Furls Fire
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:32 pm
by matrixman
Hey, nice to see you, Durris! And eloquent as always.
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:35 pm
by dlbpharmd
Durris! Good to see you around again!
Have you read TROTE and FR yet???????
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:25 pm
by Fist and Faith
*falls off chair*
DURRIS!!!
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:30 pm
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
rdhopeca wrote:jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I thought the Vow was broken because there was no one worthy of it?
The Vow was broken when the Bloodguard realized that it did not protect them from being made to serve Corruption.
Hi, Duris.
Umm...
...what does that concept have to do with the Vow? Where does Corruption have to do with it? I assume Gilden-fire still counts as far as historical value right?
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:59 pm
by rdhopeca
jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:rdhopeca wrote:jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I thought the Vow was broken because there was no one worthy of it?
The Vow was broken when the Bloodguard realized that it did not protect them from being made to serve Corruption.
Hi, Duris.
Umm...
...what does that concept have to do with the Vow? Where does Corruption have to do with it? I assume Gilden-fire still counts as far as historical value right?
When Bannor saw that they could be made to serve Corruption in spite of the Vow, the Bloodguard broke it and went home. Durris explained it quite well...?
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:40 am
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
I'm not speaking about in a historical sense, I'm speaking in a continuity, logic, thematic sense.
What does Corruption have to do with the reason the Haruchai took the Vow? I know they value perfection more than most...I guess I still don't get it?
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:09 am
by rdhopeca
jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:I'm not speaking about in a historical sense, I'm speaking in a continuity, logic, thematic sense.
What does Corruption have to do with the reason the Haruchai took the Vow? I know they value perfection more than most...I guess I still don't get it?
The Haruchai took the Vow in response to High Lord Kevin treating them with honor and respect and beauty et al instead of fighting them when they first came to the Land.
The Earthpower witnessed the Vow and sealed it, which allowed them long life and no need for sleep, etc etc.
However, once the Earthpower of the Vow was overcome in the three by the Illearth Stone, Bannor and the other Bloodguard broke the Vow. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something to the effect of "Men should not give up children and wives and sleep for something that is not pure".
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:22 am
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
*click*
You just won an arduous round of Tetris in my head, Ur-Lord. Tx.
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:30 am
by Fist and Faith
"Ah, Bannor," he sighed. "Are you so ashamed of what you were?"
Bannor cocked a white eyebrow at the question, as if it came close to the truth. "I am not shamed," he said distinctly. "But I am saddened that so many centuries were required to teach us the limits of our worth. We went too far, in pride and folly. Mortal men should not give up wives and sleep and death for any service - lest the face of failure become too abhorrent to be endured."
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:25 pm
by jacob Raver, sinTempter
It's too bad SRD brought them back without any real change to them, despite the breaking of the Vow, both in the 2nd and Last Chrons...rather lame as far as story telling goes.
