The Matrix Reloaded

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, Mhoram! I LOVE IT!!!


Brinn, Thank you very much!!! Where'd you get the transcription? I was looking for a while last night, but no luck. It follows my memory very well, although I think "Concordantly" should be "Concurrently," so maybe it's not perfect. But I might be wrong, and the errors, if any, could only be little things like that.



***Does Spoiler not work on Preview? Oh well, one giant spoiler below!!***

The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

That's the part I never understood. I understand that the situation is such that the One would naturally go to the Source at this point, because Zion is in deep doo doo. The Architect would count on it. But how did it come to be that Neo carries a code?? Maybe the bug they put into him in the first movie put it there, reprogramming his mind slightly, as Smith reprogrammed Bane to a much greater degree? And what's with the 16 women and 7 men? Why would the Architect require him to do that? And why those numbers? (Other than to help us poor guys out a bit. ) He had just said:

Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Why help them along? They can't be left unchecked - i.e., they need to be wiped out from time to time. Why not just let them start up on their own, if able? If the Architect doesn't require that Neo do this, it will take much longer for Zion to form on its own, if it could. Which I doubt.


Brinn, I think that the Oracle is the mother of the matrix. I think the Architect's "Please" was his reaction to the title Oracle. As in, "There's nothing occult or mysterious about anything she does."

I'm not sure about what other doors the other Ones had. The Architect says that Neo is the first to experience this kind of love. So what would have been behind the second door for the others? (And "Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication..." again begs the question: How?)


And the blonde actually had the orgasm at the table.

[caamora]

Brinn, that was fantastic! How did you get that?!! Now we can pick it apart just like we do the chronicles!

Reading the transcript, it seemed to me as if Neo is actually another program, not human at all, or that the "real" world is another level in the Matrix. I agree that the Oracle is the mother. I always wondered why, if she was human, why she would choose to stay within the Matrix, still having contact with other humans, rather than be living in Zion. If it were I, I would want to live in Zion. Looks like a party town!

Anyway, my question is: Did the human race die when Neo saved Trinity? I thought Zion was destroyed, I missed the part with the sham Agent Smith doing the thingy to the ships. So, are all the human "batteries" dead? If Neo carries a "code", it sounds to me as if he is just another program like the Oracle or even the agents.

F&F, I think ultimately, the Matrix still needs human power. If all were destroyed, I'm sure that there is a backup "generator" or sorts that would allow the Matrix to survive for the amount of time it would take to re-populate the energy source (humans). I think that the 16 women and 7 men is just academics. Since human women mostly give birth to one offspring at a time, it stands to reason that there would need to be more women than men. One man can impregnate - theoretically - all the women on earth!

I have to go. I'm not finished with this post. I will continue later!

[Fist and Faith]

Reading the transcript, it seemed to me as if Neo is actually another program, not human at all, or that the "real" world is another level in the Matrix.

The more I consider, the more convinced I am that the "real" world is, indeed, another level of matrix. It would explain Neo's power over the machines at the end. It would explain how the machines have destroyed Zion 5 times already, yet it is a pretty huge community with lots of activity that shouldn't have been able to escape the machines' notice while being set up. It would explain how Smith could reprogram Bane. (It's a better explanation than that the human brain and mind can be significantly reprogrammed by a computer program.)

I suppose the third movie will be of Neo truly breaking free of the matrix. Or, if he's actually a program himself, truly freeing others.

[caamora]

Agreed!

[I'm Murrin]

Saw it at last today. Strangely enough when I hear all your responses, I understood the conversation with The Architect perfectly the first time I saw it.

I did have one thought of the end - every time there has been a One it has happened the same way, the Matrix was reset, and Zion began anew, but this time there are some differences which could compromise this pattern - mainly Smith. The same thing happens every time, in the same way - the humans respond to the attack on Zion the same way. But this time, Smith sabotages the counter-attack - an event which would seem to aid the machines, but could actually cause problems because he changes the way it is meant to happen...

And the irony of Smith's existence - In The Matrix he claimed that the human race were a virus, a disease, that needed to be wiped out, and now he is the viral entity in the Matrix.

And of course the mysteries of the Matrix and Zion's existence. The Matrix was perfect - no flaws, nothing to prevent the humans accepting it, but it was a huge failure - as the architect says. In comes the 'mother' of the Matrix (unnamed, probably Oracle, but not Architect's reaction throws doubt on this). The Humans need a choice - to accept the Matrix, or reject it?
They allow the humans this choice by introducing the One - the man described in Matrix who could see it for what it was and released the first humans. He finds humans that are rejecting the Matrix and releases them into the 'real world'. He sets up a city, and it grows - this becomes a threat to the machines, so after 100 years they introduce a new One, and manipulate him to reset the Matrix while Zion is destroyed. The new One then re-establishes a human presence in the 'Real world'.
That's what we know so far, but the mystery goes on - How did he stop the Sentinels? We know that they created The One, because they have detailed knowledge of the working and programming of the human brain (hence they can create The Matrix in the first place, and also how Smith can infect human brains), but there is no reason for him to control things externally - so the question is, is the real world real? Perhaps the 'Real World' was another Matrix system, introduced to give a sufficient illusion of choice as the humans needed to be able to accept the Matrix as real. The human mind is not released, simply transferred between systems.

[Worm of Despite]

Eureka

"You think that's air you're breathing?"

All right, lemme get this straight . . . You get shot in the Matrix, and you die. You don't breathe in the Matrix, and you still live

Somebody explain to me how that's not conflicting logic!?! If an illusionary Matrix bullet through the heart tells your brain in the real world it’s shot, then wouldn’t illusionary Matrix asphyxiation turn your real-world self a nice deep purple?!

Sorry, folks, but my argument just canceled out all logic in The Matrix movies. The movies are completely and absolutely rendered moot. Thank you, and good night.

[caamora]

You sound so in your post. I hope everything is going well with you. Or are you just up to your mischievious ways?

Obviously, Foul, we are also searching for the logic. That is the point of these conversations, in case you missed it. If you choose not to discuss the possiblities of a story, then don't read the thread. But, please, do not try to rob us of the pleasure of dissecting a topic that we happen to find interesting.

So despite what you may think you know, I will go the extra mile to explain things so that you may see them more clearly and even possibly poke holes in your argument. You seem to understand it and not understand it.

When people are inside the Matrix, their bodies remain in the real world. The Matrix is, simply put, a state of mind - not an actual place. Being shot in the Matrix does not kill the body, necessarily, it kills the brain and, in turn the body, because the body cannot function without the brain. It kills the brain because, the eyes "see" the bullet, the "ears" hear the shot, the brain accepts the results - and the person believes that he/she is shot. I'm sorry, but ANY human would think that they were shot. Even you.

Do you watch the old Star Trek shows? If you do, let me harken to an episode wherein Kirk, Spock, Bones, and Chekov were brought to a world of the Old West. In this world, they were a part of the OK Corral event and they were the Clanton's (sp?) - the ones who died. Wyatt Earp and his brothers along with Doc Holliday were gunning for them. Spock realizes that this is not a real world but an illusion brought about by some alien to see how they would react. Anyway, the climax of the show is the OK Corral. Now, the captain and crew KNOW that it is fake but Spock tells them that they will still die because THEY ARE NOT 100% SURE that the bullets will pass through them. What they do is they have Spock mind-meld with them to take away all doubt. Therefore, the bullets pass through them and they walk away.

Breathing, on the other hand, is an automatic function of the body. So, when in the "world" of the Matrix, the body in the real world is still functioning normally - the heart is still pumping, etc.... Therefore, there would be no suffocation. This seems to be an obvious point.

The Matrix is a manufactured dream world - a world that is extraordinarily close to the real world. However, it is not reality. Kind of like the way Covenant looks at the Land - it isn't real, it's a dream and he will wake up. Maybe using this analogy will help you understand, if you so choose. If not, so be it.

So, you see, you haven't ended any speculation at all to the movies and have made nothing moot.

I thank you, and goodnight.[/b][/i]

[Worm of Despite]

Can't find Despite's humor, eh? Fine! You're welcome, and good night. Ooo!! You're welcome! Har har! Neener-neener-neener!

[I'm Murrin]

I think the breathing thing was because Neo had only just come out of the Matrix, and needed to realise that while it seems real, it isn't - he wasn't saying he should stop breathing, just that if he kept in mind that it wasn't real there would be no need for him to get tired.
Anyway, if he stopped breathing in his mind his real body would stop breathing as well.

[caamora]

I do appreciate humor but not when it is disguised as an attack which I felt your post was.

Then again, maybe I get offended too easily.

I also notice that you make no mention of the holes in your logic.

[Worm of Despite]

Looking at your post and calling mine a disguised attack is a bit like the crow calling the raven black, or whatnot, but I'll let it go!

Anyway, I thought my statements at the end about the movies being moot were ludicrous enough to be almost satirical of a critical statement.

Back to the argument, though. I'm not a doctor, but does the brain register the fact you're not breathing, same as it registers a bullet? So, if breathing's not a problem in the Matrix, then Agent Smith could, presumably, start choking somebody with two hands, depriving him of all his oxygen, and the guy who's being choked could sit there endlessly--no harm done? Just wondering where we draw the line, Matrix-wise, when it comes to Mr. Oxygen. But, anyway, I tend to agree with Murrin--that he still does breath, and it was more of a thing about not being tired while fighting or running from Agents.

Or maybe this will help. Neo spat up real-world blood from falling on the ground really hard after fighting Smith. Okay, so, his real-world body doesn't respond to the physical trauma caused from lack of air, but it responded to all other traumas?

[Brinn]

But the point is that there is air in the matrix...The person within the matrix still needs to breathe to survive and the program provides the simulation of breathable oxygen. If Agent Smith choked someone then the laws of the real world, and thus the mimicked laws of the matrix, would cause the person being chocked to perceive the lack of air and eventually suffocate in the real world. All physical laws within the matrix are the same as those outside in the real world.

[Worm of Despite]

I think I'm getting it! So when Morpheous said, "You think that's air you're breathing", he meant, more or less, "The rules aren't the same in here, and you can manipulate it." He wasn't really telling Neo to stop breathing altogether! Er--right?

[I'm Murrin]

On another subject, how many of you have seen some of the Animatrix short movies?
I've seen the latest two, 'Final Flight of the Osiris' and a one about a glitch in the system (can't remember the name - any help?).
Osiris is an amazing work of computer animation technology, probably one of the best computer-animated sequences I've ever seen, and it also shows how they found out about the Sentinel army before Reloaded.
The other one was about a group of children inside the matrix who found a place where the system was broken - gravity was messed up, it rained inside when it was bright outside, and all sorts of strange stuff happened until the agents came and fixed it.

There are 9 Animatrix short films - 6 have been shown so far, three still to come, all of them written by the Wachowski's, each created by a different Japanese animation team (all cartoon animation so far except Osiris) - they are, so far:

1- The Second Renaissance: Pt 1 (birth of AI, rebellion against humans, foundation of first machine nation '01')
2- Program (a story aboutt outsiders in a training program)
3- Detective Story (A PI inside the Matrix is hired by agents to follow Trinity)
4- The Second Renaissance: Pt 2 (Destruction of human civilisation, war with the machines, origins of the Matrix)
5- Final Flight of the Osiris (The discovery of the Sentinel army)
6- [Forgot name - described above] (Glitch in Matrix system)

You really need to see them to really understand the story of The Matrix - I'm hoping an Animatrix DVD will be out eventually with the whole set of films, so I can see the first four and the next three.

[Edit - it appears you can download 'Second Renaissance: Pt 1' from the Matrix website. Looks like it isn't too up to date though, because it says they are going to add 'Program' in March...]

[Worm of Despite]

Very good quote, Murrin!

[Fist and Faith]

I think some of you are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

In the matrix, if the mind believes it dies, the mind dies. And if the mind dies, the body in the real/physical world dies, because a body can't live without a mind. Those who are sufficiently aware will not die from a matrix-bullet OR matrix-asphyxiation.

caamora,
Excellent!!! Nice to see someone else make a Trek reference!

[caamora]

Lord Foul - I enjoy reading your posts and I do see your points. I am a person who happens to like debates. I debate any chance I can get! Forgive me if I get too serious or aggressive. It is a fault of mine. I wuv u!

F & F - I was raised on the old Star Trek series but I never got into TNG.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, I love TNG! But TOS is, of course, indescribably wonderful!

[Brinn]

F&F,

I think it goes somewhat beyond the theory you propose. I would say Trinity is fully aware of the fact that Matrix is a simulation and not "real"

*****SPOILER *******SPOILER *********SPOILER*******






yet when she gets shot by the agent as she falls from the building she will still die if Neo doesn't perform his emergency surgery. My theory is that the Matrix simulation is so immersive and realistic that it takes more than just knowing it's not real to overcome the brains trauma when one experiences a fatal injury in the Matrix.

Just my 2 cents!

[Worm of Despite]

Watching The Matrix Reloaded right_now! It's a bootleg I got off Kazaa--don't shoot me! I like what I've seen so far, though.

Spoiler

Just a question . . . When Smith gives the envelope through the slip and says "he set me free", that's within the Matrix, right? I mean, they're meeting in the Matrix?