EarthBlood

[Lord Mhoram]

that even the creator .. all creator's .. have faults and weaknesses .. He has said as much himself ..

I agree, because if all Creators were perfect and infallible, all worlds would be perfect.

[Fist and Faith]

Maybe we should start another thread for this, Lord Mhoram. Define a perfect world.

Sylvanus,
Yes, that IS a fascinating point about Covenant's unique road to prophethood!

[Lord Mhoram]

Sorry, Fist! I can't define perfect world since no such thing has ever existed, or ever will!

[Skyweir]

actually i like that about this creator .. he has access and the ability to wield great power and yet he willingly acknowledges his own fallibility ..

TC was chosen because it had to be someone from without his creation .. it is interesting to me .. that others can be summoned from without the Creators world .. and return in like manner ... but Foul cannot utilise the equivalent escape route ..

why can't he discover an 'out' similar to the way others have entered and exited the Land?

just an interesting thought ..

[Fist and Faith]

Never thought about that. Good point. Maybe it means Covenant's Earth IS within the Arch.

Nah. I guess the Creator wouldn't be able to enter the Arch without breaking it. If he could, he could go to the Land.

[[Syl]]

Foul could obviously exert some kind of influence on Covenant's world, but it was only very little (the manipulation of probably already lost minds). If he found some way to get there physically, he would probably be like all other human beings... for the most part.

[Fist and Faith]

I just ran across this bit by Pitchwife, which definitely applies to the EarthBlood. It's regarding the Dead in Andelain:

Linden roused herself to ask, "They why are they so cryptic? They haven't given you anything except hints and mystification. Why don't they come right out and tell you what you need to know?"

"Ah, that is plain to me," Pitchwife replied on Covenant's behalf. "Unearned knowledge is perilous. Only by the seeking and gaining of it may its uses be understood, its true worth measured. Had Gossamer Glowlimn my wife been mystically granted the skill and power of her blade without training or test or experience, by what means could she then choose where to strike her blows, how extremely to put forth her strength? Unearned knowledge rules its wielder, to the cost of both."

Even Kevin would not risk using the Power of Command. He obviously wanted future people to have learned a lot of stuff before they found it. Too bad Elena wasn't travelling with Pitchwife.

btw, here's a quote from Zen in the Art of Archery that touches on this idea. The author had been failing to draw the bow correctly for quite a while, until the Master finally told him that he was breathing incorrectly:

In talking it over with Mr. Komachiya, I once asked him why the Master had looked on so long at my futile efforts to draw the bow "spiritually," why he had not insisted on the correct breathing right from the start. "A great Master," he replied, "must also be a great teacher. With us the two things go hand in hand. Had he begun the lessons with breathing exercises, he would never have been able to convince you that you owe them anything decisive. You had to suffer shipwreck through your own efforts before you were ready to seize the lifebelt he threw you. Believe me, I know from my own experience that the Master knows you and each of his pupils much better than we know ourselves. He reads in the souls of his pupils more than they care to admit."

[Fist and Faith]

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[Skyweir]

[Ryzel]

Even Kevin would not risk using the Power of Command. He obviously wanted future people to have learned a lot of stuff before they found it. Too bad Elena wasn't travelling with Pitchwife.

I do not know if the Power of Command can be rightly termed as knowledge, but in the case of something like Kevin's Lore it could be argued that knowlegde (lore) IS power.

In any case I fetched this old quote from the quote game thread where I asked it. No-one seemed to know where it was from at that time.

"And knowledge or power which is not truly purchased swiftly tarnishes. If it does not turn against the hand that holds it, it loses all value whatsoever."

And in fact I do not the name of the Elohim who said it, but it happened at the Elohimfest.

[Han-shan]

I agree that the Power of Command is not knowledge. In fact, it's likely that the more knowledge you have, the less likely you are to use the Power of Command.

As for Kevin's Lore, I can't know for sure, not having his Wards to study, but I assume they do little other than teach different ways of using the Earthpower. Not that that is not a serious amount of knowledge. But I don't think Kevin spent much time teaching how to find or access entirely different sources of power, because, as far as we know, they used only the one kind of power - Earthpower. He certainly told them about wild magic, and possibly other types of power, but the vast majority of the Wards was probably about the many ways he knew of how to manipulate the one power that they used. In that sense, yes, "it could be argued that knowlegde (lore) IS power."

[caamora]

Good point, F&F. Maybe that is why TC was never able to really use the White Gold - because he didn't understand it and therefore could not use it. He had not learned the knowledge - had not sought and gained the knowledge to use it. But, with the adventures in the 2nd chrons, maybe he did finally understand that he was the white gold and he understood the paradox.

That was off the subject, I realize, but I just had to put that in!

[Ryzel]

There is one paradox with power based on Earthpower. It seems as if Desecration does not require any special lore or knowledge. At least not according to Amok ("It comes willingly to any ready hand...") yet it certainly is a ritual of power.

So the earthpower will power the ritual of desecration, but the new lords seem to think that the ritual of desecration somehow is the anathema of their existence and thus they cannot understand the earthpower.

[Han-shan]

My theories go like this:
I think the Ritual of Desecration is the same as any other application of the Earthpower. I assume that somewhere in the Wards Kevin tells how to use the Staff of Law to transcend language, and allow communication with anyone - as was described in GILDEN-FIRE. But he didn't put it there because people could not figure it out on their own. Rather, they just might not think of it. If they conceive of the idea, they'll accomplish it.

Same with the Ritual of Desecration. (Though Kevin may not have included this lesson in his Wards, figuring, "If they don't think of it, great! I'm not gonna put the idea in their heads.")


I love your quote about power. I wish I could find it! However, I ran across this conversation between Linden and Pitchwife:

"Is that more of your pitch? How do you make it?"

At that, he laughed, and his mirth came more easily. "Yes, Chosen. In all good sooth, this is my pitch. The vat is formed of dolomite, that it may not be fused as would the stone of Starfare's Gem. But as to the making of pitch - ah, that it skills nothing for me to relate. You are neither Giant nor wiver. And the power of pitch arises as does any other, from the essence of the adept who wields it. All power is an articulation of its wielder. There is no other source than life - and the desire of that life to express itself. But there must also be a means of articulation. I can say little but that this pitch is my chosen means. Having said that, I have left you scarce wiser than before."

Linden shrugged away his disclaimer. "Then what you're saying," she murmured slowly, "is that the power of wild magic comes from Covenant himself? The ring is just his - his means of articulation?"

He nodded. "I believe that to be sooth. But the means controls intimately the nature of what may be expressed. By my pitch I may accomplish nothing for the knitting of broken limbs, just as no theurgy of the flesh may seal stone as I do."

Combined with what Fist and Faith quoted above, Pitchwife is on par with Amok in understanding power! Much as we know of him, I think there is much more to know.

[Ryzel]

Pitchwife is the only giant we see that wields any kind of "magic" power, actually. It is natural that his understanding of these things run deep.

For all that we know that the Unhomed knew of, and used boats made with lomilialor wood keels. Apparently they had lost (or never had) the lore necessary to build dromonds like Starfares Gem.

And who would have thought that Revelstone could have been built by people having only a remnant of the stone lore of the giants left?

[Han-shan]

When we first meet Foamfollower, he is using, to paraphrase, "knowledge and strength and potent vital songs" to power his boat up the Soulsease River. But it would seem that the Giants use "magic" as little as possible. When Covenant asked if he knew how to use the white gold, Foamfollower said:

"No, I do not know. If the wild magic may not be called up by the simple decision of use, then I do not understand it at all. Giants do not have such lore. We have always acted for ourselves - though we gladly use such tools as Gildenlode."

I imagine dromonds, and things like Revelstone and Coercri, are built by strength of limb as much as possible, with wivers performing their craft only when necessary. (Which is probably often enough in such projects as these.)

Regarding the Unhomed and dromonds, they had three out at a time, at all times, searching for the way home. I imagine a dromond, if properly cared for, can last for millennia, and assume those they had were from the original voyages that brought them to the Land. So they must have at least had the knowledge to care for them. The other option is that they built them themselves.

[Skyweir]

like your new av .. really liked the old one too

i enjoy reading your theories han-shan .. you have an interesting insight and depth of knowledge re: TCTC ..

you honour SRD's work with your presence and your views .. thankyou

[Ryzel]

I love your quote about power. I wish I could find it!

It is part of a much longer paragraph, spoken by Infelice, in the chapter called "The Elohimfest" in TOT.

[Han-shan]

Skyweir,
Your words are gracious and generous! I thank you!!

And I assume you mean this avatar? I'm sure I'll go back and forth from time to time. I love them both.

[danlo]

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