Kevin's Watch

Besides, there's still a lot of gray area to work with. If I send a vision to the unaligned mortals of God X's major city saying that God X is twisted and their followers scum, that's alright. Compelling them to actually do harm would probably cross the line, but just because I can't do that with impunity, doesn't mean I can't make things hard for God X. But I strongly believe that it should not be easy for any god to directly interfere with another god's stuff.

But you know what the game is like!

If you send this dream and then the recipients rise up and overthrow God X's temple, slaughtering priests etc (I'm thinking the Night of Blood in Porsulis - which was devastating for Undine but not Maeror's intention), then does the Law take effect, even though you didn't mean for these consequences to happen? It might take 3 DRP for god X to repair the harm you've caused - and you DID intend harm, if not quite so much. So that means you get hit by a 3DRP disaster, or 4.5DRP disaster if God X was weaker than you?

Both God X and you would be screaming at Xar claiming the Law was unfair.

I think.

And if you think the above example too extreme in its consequences, then I would argue that the very fact that the Law is there, is too limiting to Xar in what consequences he can make from our actions.

I would like to hear everyone else's point of view

(a) Henceforth, any divine energy, positive or negative, exerted on or into Eiran with the purpose of affecting a divine party whose patron is not the initiator of the same shall be returned to its originator in a time and form to be dictated by the will of the Allfather.

I guess it comes down to a debate about purpose. And if the purpose isn't clear, then the return wouldn't be expected to be. *shrug* Perhaps it could be changed to say that you cannot use or allow your DRP or divine party to directly affect another player's divine party. Working through a neutral intermediary would be the divine equivalent of money laundering.

You do seem to make a good point, Stonemaybe. Though I acknowledge Hedra's side of it--she did leave a lot of the application of the law up to Xar's discretion. I think the problem is the crossover between the specific, DRP-related section of the law, and that discretion--Xar may be able to decide how and when it applies, but that part gives a specific and apparently inarguable value to the return that might not lie at all with Xar's impression of events. On the other hand, removing that part of the law would make it far too general.

Here is a suggestion: you could make that DRP level the maximum return for a given action, and give Xar the ability to decide how much within that is merited by the action itself. Although that does seem like it would make more work for Xar, it gives the most flexibility in the return while still ensuring consequences cannot exceed the strength of the original action.

Hedra Iren wrote:

(a) Henceforth, any divine energy, positive or negative, exerted on or into Eiran with the purpose of affecting a divine party whose patron is not the initiator of the same shall be returned to its originator in a time and form to be dictated by the will of the Allfather.

I guess it comes down to a debate about purpose. And if the purpose isn't clear, then the return wouldn't be expected to be. *shrug* Perhaps it could be changed to say that you cannot use or allow your DRP or divine party to directly affect another player's divine party. Working through a neutral intermediary would be the divine equivalent of money laundering.

Please don't think I'm totallyagainst this idea. Just looking for clarity.

If you leave it like this, any sly, ulterior move-at-one-remove would go unpunished, whereas a direct open attack in response would get punished.

So (sorry Uncle!) if for example Rothmog creates a virulent plague in an unaligned town - no punishment. But that town is on the borders of aother god's lands (as uncle well knew!) and that god's people are devastated. rothmog doesn't get a 'Return' but if the affected god strikes back with an army, then s/he does.

That's not right either, IMO!

That's an interesting scenario. But the other god should be able to stop the plague, and considering the indirect nature, perhaps before it even affected his own followers. Sure, that god would then consider that he owes Rothmog one in return (if Xar wants conflict...). He could then do something indirectly, like Rothmog, or decide that Rothmog's interference is worth acting directly, maybe getting some allies involved in the process.

Perhaps an indirect attack doesn't trigger a return, but it also forfeits protection?

Can't the affected deity just respond indirectly?

I personally like the law as I believe it will add new levels of intrigue to the plotting that already goes on. It will also force us to think about new and inventive ways of accomplishing our goals, as well as making us consider whether a direct attack is actually worth it.

I still don't see it being a problem whatsoever. Xar is not going to allow my Gift to be of lasting/significant strength. In the last three turns, Shakari had become very powerful. It was already a nifty place, when, in 24, I merged the soul of my dead Prophet with the Forest. That gave it some marvelous abilities! Then, in 26, I Manifested, and increased that awareness, gave it the ability to Teleport things from place to place within the Forest, and boosted the Forest's strength. Yeah, Neph did serious damage to Shakari. Including to the awareness, which is fragmented possibly beyond repair. However, Shakari is doing better than the rest of the world.

But it's not good enough. And despite my Gift - which, as you might have gathered from my letter to my father, is Unbinding so that my 8-DRP essence will strengthen things in one way or another - no matter what I do, Shakari will not be remembered in the 3rd Age. I can't guess how my Gift will benefit my followers or Shakari, but it will not be anywhere near as much as I wish. No Gift I can possibly give will make this thing that might be considered a living artifact endure. *shrug* It's just the way P3 needs to start. I know going into it that that's the case, and I'll do what I can, and hope for the best. But rules is rules.

Likewise, Hedra's Law of Return may have some bearing, but Xar need not feel obliged to follow it in every aspect. Karma is a simple fact of life, for us in rl and for the Pantheon. Our actions have consequences. Ripples in the water, and all that. There's no possible way to avoid it. That's the case even without the Law of Return. But Xar can certainly use the LoR to strengthen certain ideas in certain ways.

The only problem I have with it is this

It just helps keep gods from messing with each other, and I don't see any reason why that should be easy.

In my style of playing the game, it defeats the purpose of the game itself. I live in this game only to interact (both positively AND negatively) with the rest of the Gods here. It's not much fun without having the freedom to attack and BE attacked. I contacted both Maeror and Asta before any war was instigated, to make sure that it would be fun for both of us. Even WITH agreement from both players, this Law would make it unfeasable, and thus, make the game less fun for me.

But not everyone plays the same way I do. Fist has made multiple mentioning about how content he'd be to sit and let Shakari thrive.

*shrug* It seems like the support or rivalry for this Law depends on how you play the game. This is just my two cents.

Balon wrote:But not everyone plays the same way I do. Fist has made multiple mentioning about how content he'd be to sit and let Shakari thrive.

Amen, mah bruthah!!! Everyone keep the hell out!!!!!!

Truly, I seem to play for reasons entirely different from everybody else's. It's just like rl for me. It's impossible to make utopia, but I keep trying. I don't want the excitement of wars and crap. I want to set up a system, and fine-tune, fine-tune, fine-tune, until it all runs smoothly without thought or effort. Wu-wei.

Fist and Faith wrote: Truly, I seem to play for reasons entirely different from everybody else's. It's just like rl for me. It's impossible to make utopia, but I keep trying. I don't want the excitement of wars and crap. I want to set up a system, and fine-tune, fine-tune, fine-tune, until it all runs smoothly without thought or effort. Wu-wei.

Not entirely different from everyone, Fist...

I'm a dystopia fan, myself . . .

I'm all about the character. I come up with an idea, then try to play along with it, regardless of how this fits with the way other players are going.
(Of course, I'm not that good at sticking with the idea like that, as I end up revising it to accomodate the interaction the game involves. Trying to avoid that this tme, though.)

Yeah, well that's how I see it too. I'm just attracted to concepts which involve deep flaws or darker elements by nature. But I like to challenge myself. I'll stick to my character concept, even if it is unworkable.

Xar, I am still waiting for your final approval of my gift.

Getting close to the end now... Some interesting--and inventive--gifts so far.
Mine is simple, I had it written up a couple of days before I added the Admar story, but I'm going to let it wait a while longer.

*waves goodbye to his dad*

Your dad done good brother Zephyr!

can i go hang out with the old ones now? i think they're drinking and i could sorely use a drink. i sorta feel a bit weepy.

Well done, MV. That was beautiful!

Awesome MV, simply awesome!!