Kevin's Watch

Zarathustra wrote:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Things will get a little worse before the final resolution, unless the resolution is "Foul escapes through the broken Arch of Time".

[/color]

Why would that be considered an unhappy ending? When Tolkien had Morgoth kicked out to the Void in the Silmarillion, it was considered a victory. Getting Foul out of the Land would be great! Maybe he can escape through a crack, without the entire Arch breaking, and then the crack sealed again.

That's probably not exactly how it will happen [I don't think you're suggesting it is, necessarily] but that is, I'm really quite sure, what will happen...one way or another LF and the next stage of material existence will be separated.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Unlike Middle Earth, whose gods are already present inside it, the Arch of Time separates the Creator from the Land. In order for Foul to get out of the Arch it would have to be broken, which results in the world being ceasing to exist.

yes, but with the powers arrayed there are options: the recreation/reconstitution of another arch. Or a "cracking" like Z suggests, but with the power to hold enough pieces near enough to re-weld it together after he's out [or something like the giant who plugged the leak in the ship with his body...that would be fun], or the creation of an Arch within the arch to cage him in [maybe LF put into a time-tunnel universe like the Elo are so afraid of].

Could he be installed in a new Colossus or is that a fate more in keeping with kastenessen? In TIW it states that the grip of the colossus releases despite when the will of the trees is less. Mayb some forestal, kastenessen, foul combo incorporating linden as a forestal? Haha I don't know it's all bologna eh?

I'm fairly certain that the Worm isn't a threat to Foul. He's always been said and shown to be immune to any Earthpower, and the Worm is merely the ultimate expression of Earthpower.

As for Foul escaping, I'm not sure about that but personally I am fairly sure the Land will be destroyed. Sad but (I believe) true.

HC above posits the Worm as the ultimate expression of Earthpower. This may be the case - I have become a bit lost with it all to be honest - but if this is the case does that meanwe have abandoned or discarded the idea of the Worm as part of the crteation myth as outlined in The One Tree ie the beast that used to cut a swathe through the heavens gulping down stars and all. This wouls surely put the worm beyond the Land/Earth confined earthpower wouldn't it?

Foul's 'escape into the void' theory sends shivers down my spine. This is what he has sought for countless millenia and it 'aint so he can wander in splendid and icy isolation for the rest of time! There is good reason why the Creator has locked him out of harms way (relatively speaking!) under the arch in the Land - because he would wreak havoc and devastation in the Universe at large if given the chance to wander abroad.

One idea - perhaps Jeremiah with his 'door to nowhere' building abilities could be of help in dealing with Foul (re the 'time-tunnel' reference above).

peter wrote: Foul's 'escape into the void' theory sends shivers down my spine. This is what he has sought for countless millenia and it 'aint so he can wander in splendid and icy isolation for the rest of time! There is good reason why the Creator has locked him out of harms way (relatively speaking!) under the arch in the Land - because he would wreak havoc and devastation in the Universe at large if given the chance to wander abroad.

One idea - perhaps Jeremiah with his 'door to nowhere' building abilities could be of help in dealing with Foul (re the 'time-tunnel' reference above).

Yes, exactly, on the last...whether it takes that precise form or not, that is most likely what Jerry is for if he makes the "good" choice.

On the escape...that's what LF says he wants, and maybe it is. BUT: what if [and I believe this, in part, though speculative] it is LF's trap, the Arch, being inside it, that has separated HIM from his true nature as much as it has done to SHE? Recall, the Creator did not plan or ponder what he did to LF...he did it in rage. What if, whether LF intended it or not, the things he placed in the world [the banes, evil, things in opposition to Earthpower and goodness] were NECESSARY for that world to mean anything, to function correctly? And everything went disastrously wrong, the world faces this kind of unnatural destruction instead of death by natural causes for the simple, pure reason that, just like the Creator himself, LF and SHE do not belong inside the Arch. What if Time itself is torture for a timeless being? What if their mere presence, even if they didn't/don't choose destruction/corruption is sorta like a slow motion meeting of matter and anti-matter?
I do believe that is the essential cause. But because of the things that have happened you can't achieve resolution simply by letting LF out. [or SHE, for that matter.] Well, not a good resolution anyway.

Vraith wrote:What if, whether LF intended it or not, the things he placed in the world [the banes, evil, things in opposition to Earthpower and goodness] were NECESSARY for that world to mean anything, to function correctly?

Recall that Kasreyn's belief was that in order to make a work "perfect" the creator has to put a flaw into the work on purpose. Apply this to the Creator: in order to make the world "perfect" it had to contain a flaw; that flaw is referred to as Lord Foul (among his other names). Foul tricking SHMNBN into being trapped inside the Arch was merely an early victory for himself.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Vraith wrote:What if, whether LF intended it or not, the things he placed in the world [the banes, evil, things in opposition to Earthpower and goodness] were NECESSARY for that world to mean anything, to function correctly?

Recall that Kasreyn's belief was that in order to make a work "perfect" the creator has to put a flaw into the work on purpose. Apply this to the Creator: in order to make the world "perfect" it had to contain a flaw; that flaw is referred to as Lord Foul (among his other names). Foul tricking SHMNBN into being trapped inside the Arch was merely an early victory for himself.

Don't know how I missed that little point. It fits perfectly into my GUCCI, so I'm stealing it from you.

My only niggle with this is how out of sorts it feels having a child with the power to imprison an immortal. Jeremiah doesn't even have any disernable power source I.e whitegold or staff of law.
A racecar? The powers of some of the characters in LC make high lord kevins mighty lore look like fireworks, it dosent sit right with me

jonnyredleader wrote:My only niggle with this is how out of sorts it feels having a child with the power to imprison an immortal. Jeremiah doesn't even have any disernable power source I.e whitegold or staff of law.
A racecar? The powers of some of the characters in LC make high lord kevins mighty lore look like fireworks, it dosent sit right with me

I have sympathy with this view - but I think as Vraith says, this is the avenue in which Jerremiah's 'powers' seem most suited to be steered, though it does have the feel of a (dare I say it) bit of a cop out.



Just one observation about the manner in which LF became trapped under the Arch. He was thrown down in anger rather than as a predetermined constituent of the creation - and yet his pressence was 'NECESSARY' for the world to mean anything. Sorry guy's - I'm having trouble squaring that circle and thus is undermined what follows.

Peter wrote:Just one observation about the manner in which LF became trapped under the Arch. He was thrown down in anger rather than as a predetermined constituent of the creation - and yet his pressence was 'NECESSARY' for the world to mean anything. Sorry guy's - I'm having trouble squaring that circle and thus is undermined what follows.

Like the creation myth of the Worm, I suspect the truth will be somewhere in between. Turns out the Worm is a literal Worm, but it's not quite as the original myth described- far from the surface of the Earth being it's "skin" it's actually relatively small. I expect the creation myth of the Creator's battle with Lord Foul will turn out to be similar- truth mixed with legend.

I think the banes Lord Foul placed in the Earth and the Land were necessary, but his actual presence was not. Balance is what is needed. A world with potent natural beauty (Earthpower) and potent banes (Illearth Stone) could be argued to be balanced. A world with all that, an absent Benevolent Immortal and an all too present Evil Immortal...not balanced. I don't think the Land was ever supposed to contain Lord Foul.

Am I right in remembering that Foul had been sprinkling his banes in (rather like a vindictive chef ) while the Creators back was turned. If so how is it that the banes were necessary - they were not part of the Creators design but were rather, introduced as an atempt to make mischief on Foul's part. By this argument the Creator did not understand the needs of his own creation and it was Foul who saw the necessity (correctly) for balance.

( Can't help playing Devil's advocate Cambo - like the scorpion who stings the frog carrying him to safety over the river, when asked by the dying frog "why did you do that - now we both drown" he shrugs and replies "I can't help it - it's in my nature.")

peter wrote:Am I right in remembering that Foul had been sprinkling his banes in (rather like a vindictive chef ) while the Creators back was turned.

I suspect the Creator knew what Foul was doing and that the Creator figured he could make something good come from it, much like Iluvatar managing to create good out of Melkor's attempt at making mischief.

I see where you are coming from HL - but then what are we to make of his throwing the Despiser down in (feigned?) anger; would we not then have to reinterpret this as a deliberate act on his part. Thus would the aforementioned balance be achieved - but we would then have to conclude that inflicting the Despiser on His Creation was always a deliberate part of his plan. Does this work?

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

peter wrote:Am I right in remembering that Foul had been sprinkling his banes in (rather like a vindictive chef ) while the Creators back was turned.

I suspect the Creator knew what Foul was doing and that the Creator figured he could make something good come from it, much like Iluvatar managing to create good out of Melkor's attempt at making mischief.

I don't think so. Unless my memory is badly flawed [always a possible], the story is that the Creator saw the banes, and in a fit threw LF down. But, even if he did know and do it on purpose, that doesn't make it better, it makes it worse...makes the Creator directly, intentionally, responsible for everything that went wrong in the world. Kinda tossing a pedophile into the nearest cell, ignoring that the cell is full of children.

It's very old testament wrath and anger

peter wrote:Am I right in remembering that Foul had been sprinkling his banes in (rather like a vindictive chef ) while the Creators back was turned. If so how is it that the banes were necessary - they were not part of the Creators design but were rather, introduced as an atempt to make mischief on Foul's part. By this argument the Creator did not understand the needs of his own creation and it was Foul who saw the necessity (correctly) for balance.

( Can't help playing Devil's advocate Cambo - like the scorpion who stings the frog carrying him to safety over the river, when asked by the dying frog "why did you do that - now we both drown" he shrugs and replies "I can't help it - it's in my nature.")

I'm not drowned yet . I think it's entirely possible the Creator didn't understand the needs for his Creation- entirely. But I highly doubt Foul understood the need for balalnce either. I think the balance is present by having both the Creator up there making good works, Foul up there making bad works, but both external from the works themselves.

In other words, Foul's proper place is to be up there screwing around behin the Creator's back. The Creator messed up big time byt throwing him down into the Land.

Good reply Cambo - Damn the loss of the 'good post' button on this thread. Where has it gone? How can that happen?

Thanks. Yeah, the goodpost button seems to be missing from all the AATE threads- I've wanted to use it a few times myself.