Kevin's Watch

Orlion wrote:Jay once pointed out that SRD works are a sort of 'all or nothing' deal.

I said that????

Wow! I'm quite profound!

Anyway, I just had a thought the other day, that in spite of the fact that I just *haven't* gotten into the Last Chronicles the same way as the older ones, and in spite my issues with the new books, SRD is still one heck of a writer. I just love the thought he puts into ever line. Even though I don't understand 25% of the words he uses (see SRD ate my dictionary, haha), when I go to read something else non-SRD, there's something lacking that I miss.

-jay

Yes Ananda, they have their own homeland somewhere. But now they interact heavily with the Land. And apparently also played a part in Bereks ascension, retconned. But in between Berek and now they seem to have been content to watch the whole place blow to bits from afar.

Atrium, are you sure SheWho is as powerful as Lord Foul? I dn't remember reading that.

Atrium wrote:SWMNBN on the other hand is just dreadful, in my wiew. Zarathustra, i think you are being very charitable when you write "She was already foreshadowed in the 2nd Chrons." Apart from a song sung by the deceitful Clave, representing their distortion of the Lands history, we get no clues i can recall to the fact that another being as powerful as Foul was ever present in the Land. Didnt anyone ever notice her? Old Lords? New Lords? Seers and Oracles? Urviles, wayhimn? Unfettered stone readers? In the final sequence of WGW Lindens percipience grows to encompass literally all of Mount Thunder, and she never catches a whiff of Ms Foul sulking in the deeps.

Oh, she catches a "whiff" alright during that scene:

In WGW, Donaldson wrote: Almost without transition, her health-sense became as huge as the mountain. She tasted Mount Thunder's tremendous weight and ancientness, felt the slow, wracked breathing of the stone. Cavewights scurried like motes through the unmeasured catacombs. Far below her, Ravers cowered among the banes and creatures of the depths ...

Sure, it's not much more than a "whiff." But we're also given the reason why she didn't resolve this quick view into a distinct awareness of what those "banes and creatures" were:

In WGW, Donaldson wrote:Before she could clarify half her perceptions, they reached beyond the mountain, went out into the Land.

The sun was rising. Though she stood in Kiril Threndor as if if she were entranced, she felt the Sunbane dawn over her.

It was insanely intense ...

The Sunbane distracted her; her own all-encompassing vision distracted her.

But the very last "full" paragraph of this book (rather than the final two individual sentences) holds the real clue:

At the end of WGW, Donaldson wrote:There Linden let go. The mountain towered over her, as imponderable as the gaps between the stars. It was heavier than sorrow, greater than loss. Nothing would ever heal what it had endured. She was only mortal; but Mount Thunder's grief would go on without let or surcease, unambergrised for all time.

That's a very odd and dark way to end this book, this 2nd series, given that Linden has just performed a "miracle" of healing and had a monumental victory over the Sunbane. Why would the mountain itself be more wounded than the rest of the land? Why is this wound related to grief and loss? Why is it "unambergrised" for all time?

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote: "What the hell does 'unambergrised' mean?"--"hell" having suddenly become appropriate to the discussion (via "treating something deceased or lost with contempt and/or disregard").

There's SheWho.

Vraith wrote: Atrium: the Inseq. were NOT content to "watch the land blow to bits." They were TERRIFIED by the shit in the Land.[/color]

I agree. The Elohim are secure in their power, Foul is a threat to the Arch but probably not to them personally. Sure he sends monsters (the quellvisk) to rattle their cage a bit, and maybe he could corrupt an Elohim like Kastenessen if given the chance, but Foul's not about to storm Elemesnedene with an army or something. I think the Elohim would make short work of a couple of Giant-Ravers with pieces of the Illearth Stone and a bunch of cavewights and wolves.

The Insequent, however, have no such defense. Sure they are powerful, but not in the same way as the Elohim. Foul would most likely trash all of them if they stuck their noses into the Land.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Vraith wrote: Atrium: the Inseq. were NOT content to "watch the land blow to bits." They were TERRIFIED by the shit in the Land.[/color]

I agree. The Elohim are secure in their power, Foul is a threat to the Arch but probably not to them personally. Sure he sends monsters (the quellvisk) to rattle their cage a bit, and maybe he could corrupt an Elohim like Kastenessen if given the chance, but Foul's not about to storm Elemesnedene with an army or something. I think the Elohim would make short work of a couple of Giant-Ravers with pieces of the Illearth Stone and a bunch of cavewights and wolves.

The Insequent, however, have no such defense. Sure they are powerful, but not in the same way as the Elohim. Foul would most likely trash all of them if they stuck their noses into the Land.

Yea, the Elohim have their own rules, they're all capable of the same things, and they're capable of becoming one together, for an all out defense. The Insequent, OTOH, are individuals, who pride themselves on their hoarding of learned magicks.and their rules dictate you don't share a weakness of one of the other individuals or get in their way of gaining and hoarding new powers. They don't seem to be able to become a "United Force" as the Elohim can, and don't have a homeland to defend, or defend from.

Mmmmm......... There comes a time when third Chrons apologism, like a house of cards as it gets bigger, no longer seems to stack up. The tricksy devices (introduction of new charachters, time travel, appearance and dissapearence at random etc) outlined in the last few post in the end begin cumulatively, to point to an author who had lost his way in the dark heart of his own literary forrest.

Atrium, are you sure SheWho is as powerful as Lord Foul? I dn't remember reading that.

I was positive i had read that, either in the gradual interwiew or in AATE. Now you made me a little insecure. Anyone else remember?


It seems reasonable enough though. Assuming that the Clave is right on this she is another immortal from beyond the arch of time, and the Creators sweetheart. And there is also the idea - i forget if this is from Donaldson or something i picked up in this forum - that she incarnates a "concept" just like Foul incarnates the concept of Despite. Her concept being that of Love. Love would not be weaker than Despite in a Donaldson story right?


And i still think you are being charitable. Sure, we always knew that there were nasty banes in Mount Thunder, this is explained already in book one. But the only one ever detailed to us is the Illearth stone. The rest remain nameless.

At the end of WGW, Donaldson wrote:There Linden let go. The mountain towered over her, as imponderable as the gaps between the stars. It was heavier than sorrow, greater than loss. Nothing would ever heal what it had endured. She was only mortal; but Mount Thunder's grief would go on without let or surcease, unambergrised for all time.

That's a very odd and dark way to end this book, this 2nd series, given that Linden has just performed a "miracle" of healing and had a monumental victory over the Sunbane. Why would the mountain itself be more wounded than the rest of the land? Why is this wound related to grief and loss? Why is it "unambergrised" for all time?

I had no problem understanding why Mount Thunder, after millennia of being used as a breeding den and charnel pit by the most vile creatures in the Land, and housing Despite in its heart wielding the Sunbane, would be a very unhappy mountain. I think its hinted in more than one passage that the mountain in itself has a kind of slow consciousness, that its not at all happy about the use it is being put to but unable to purge itself of its banes because its too slow and timeless. I always liked this passage, its very poetic and fits right in with the nature of the Land where even the earth and mountains have a sould and feel pain and seeks healing:


BTW, i dont find a translation for unambergrised on the web, but i believe i looked it up in my english-swedish dictionary when i first read the book and understood it to mean something similar to unhealed. Anyone have a clear definition?

Nothing would ever heal what it had endured.

Note that we are still talking about "it", here, as in what the mountain had endured, not "she", as in what She had endured and will have to endure for 3000 + years more.


Sure, interpreted generously it leaves an opening. And if i would retconn in another evil power into the Lands history, the Deeps of Mount Thunder would be the logical place to put it. But there is still the question of how this very powerful entity could lie there under the radar for all these millennia escaping notice from all the very perceptive and magically gifted inhabitants of the Land. If She indeed is the Love principle gone sour, its a very far stretch of the imaginatin that this universal principle didnt affect events and the emotions and motivations of its near neighbours.


In the end i guess it boils down to execution. If i had liked the way She was brought into the story and interacted with the characters, i could have overslooked the kind of logical leaps i harp on about here. I really disliked that part of the book, and have no incentive to be forgiving. No kind eyes here

The Insequent, however, have no such defense. Sure they are powerful, but not in the same way as the Elohim. Foul would most likely trash all of them if they stuck their noses into the Land.

And yet they choose to stick their noses in now, and are not trashed by Foul and his minions (apart from the Harrow, who acted a bit overconfident). As i recall they do have their own homeland, the Haruchai encountered it when they ran into the Vizard, so it cant be too far away from the Land. And these guys know much about things going on afar. But still choose to go under the radar when their help could have made all the difference. Sure, the text gives us their explanation and we must take their word for it, but its just another piece in the puzzle that for me makes the LC seem so different from series 1&2.
The whole Land setting has changed from something dynamic and organic with a rich history and great set of secondary characters to just a pale theater backdrop for the final confrontation between the only players that really matter, Linden, Covenant and Foul.

peter wrote:Mmmmm......... There comes a time when third Chrons apologism, like a house of cards as it gets bigger, no longer seems to stack up. The tricksy devices (introduction of new charachters, time travel, appearance and dissapearence at random etc) outlined in the last few post in the end begin cumulatively, to point to an author who had lost his way in the dark heart of his own literary forrest.

I'm definitely not a 3rd Chrons apologist, and I've criticized this series in very harsh terms. However, SRD did plan on writing it eventually when he wrote the 2nd--or at least the possibility of writing it--and he claimed to have written in several "backdoors" or things to expand upon for the 3rd. The Insequent was the only major element which he admitted was entirely unexpected to himself during the course of writing this Chronicles. I feel confident that something as big as SheBane was intended ever since the 80s, when he conceived these two stories simultaneously.

May i ask, I haven't seen any direct reply to my story on the previous page here, is it because it's clear and obvious or completely unclear?

Ananda wrote:Atrium, the insequent were from outside "the land" werent they? We saw different magics before when we went on the boat ride in the one tree. It was my understanding that "the land" was just a small bit of that world and there was much more beyond its borders that we werent shown. Because of that, I guess, I dont see them as being inconsistent. I just see it as more of the world being revealed.

I don't know that I'd say the Insequent are from "beyond the land." The Haruchai would then not be considered "of the land" as they lived in the Westron Mountains in the Guards Gap area. The people "of the land" would also not be of the Land because during the time after the Ritual, while the Land was recovering, they had all scattered and none of the people during the original Chronicles were originally from the Land, given that at least a few hundred years passed before they could move back into the land - and probably more years than that, given how short lived humans tend to be compared to other races/species.

Effaeldm wrote:May i ask, I haven't seen any direct reply to my story on the previous page here, is it because it's clear and obvious or completely unclear?

I have a bad habit of responding mainly when I disagree with something someone has said. If you spend much time in the Tank, you may have noticed I can be argumentative.

I didn't respond to your anecdote because I didn't feel it needed a response. I've never had that exact experience myself, so I can't really relate to it. But I can see how others might find such an experience as part of the magic of reading and story-telling, finding something new in something old, or revisiting something with a new perspective. I believe a lot of people have that experience with The Gap series, giving it a try, not liking it, then trying it again and absolutely loving it. I, however, loved it from the very beginning so I can't relate.

bikebryan wrote:

Ananda wrote:Atrium, the insequent were from outside "the land" werent they? We saw different magics before when we went on the boat ride in the one tree. It was my understanding that "the land" was just a small bit of that world and there was much more beyond its borders that we werent shown. Because of that, I guess, I dont see them as being inconsistent. I just see it as more of the world being revealed.

I don't know that I'd say the Insequent are from "beyond the land." The Haruchai would then not be considered "of the land" as they lived in the Westron Mountains in the Guards Gap area. The people "of the land" would also not be of the Land because during the time after the Ritual, while the Land was recovering, they had all scattered and none of the people during the original Chronicles were originally from the Land, given that at least a few hundred years passed before they could move back into the land - and probably more years than that, given how short lived humans tend to be compared to other races/species.

Oh, okay. I thought that 'the land' was sort of like france if the alps carried on to block it off completely. Meaning it was part of a larger place, but sort of isolated and we just saw what happened in that small area and not the rest of europe and maybe the insequent were from belguim or holland. But, I am not even close to good at 'the land' geography. I glanced at the map once, though!

"The Land" is indeed only that small part of the Earth where the first Chronicles took place.

The Haruchai came to the Land from beyond it's boarders. Their home is not considered part of the Land.

Cerainly when the Haruchai encountered Insequent such as the Vizard, they were far away from their own home as well as far away from the Land.

And, as Haruchai aren't big about sharing information, it's entirely consistent that they never mentioned the Insequent to anyone in The Land. In fact, if anything, their shame deepend this reticence.

During the aftermath of Kevin's Ritual, the people of The Land did indeed leave it, and many generations later came back. Technically, they were indeed not from The Land, but their ancestors were, as well as signficant bits of their culture and lore. So they still considered themselves from The Land, and that they only left it to return.

As to the larger picture, which is why add new material at all --- from Donaldson's oft-repeated comments that he only creates what he needs, we must assume he needed new people.

Venturing into personal opinion, I would say that Donaldson doesn't like messing up his "peoples" by trying to do too much with any single one of them. AATE required certain kinds of interventions from some group of people in order to tell his story about how Linden was rescued from the past and how Jeremiah was rescued. And, although it has been low on the radar for a while, about what happened to the Guardian of the One Tree. I think Donaldson didn't want to try and force an existing group of people into this slot, so instead he invented a new group which he could design to be exactly what he needed.

The alternative would be, if anything, even more implausible, at least in my opinion. If you take a limited cast of peoples and keep adding more and more backstory to them, that gets suspicious too. Its much easier to explain why we didn't know about some past event by using a new bunch of guys whom we haven't met before, then using an old bunch of guys and having to invent a reason why they had a secret they didn't tell us until now.

(Which we sort of have with the whole Haruchai/Vizard exposition. So Donaldson had to find a way to make it plausible that this was never revealed until now.)

wayfriend wrote: Venturing into personal opinion, I would say that Donaldson doesn't like messing up his "peoples" by trying to do too much with any single one of them.

Damn, WF, thanks. I've been groping/searching/flailing around to discover and nail that idea down [and failing, chasing my own tail] for a long time. It's the missing link in much of my Grand Theory of the Chron's. Because if you think on it [likely you already have since you had the thought...heh] it's consistent not only with his "what I need" method, it is consistent with the ethical questions of the series...it's the "necessity of freedom" and lack thereof written at the large/cultural/worldwide level, it's [in part] why LF would be bad even if he weren't bad, just by being there...and why outsiders are necessary yet risky.
and maybe a bunch of other stuff...but I'll hve to think on it.

On the wherabouts of the land of the Insequent:

´After a trek of many days,´ he said ´we at last left behind our high peaks and biting snows, and found a fertile lowland lush with crops and waters, a region in which we deemed that even a slothful and unstriving people would flourish. Fow a time we encountered none of the region´s inhabitants. At last however we came upon a lone hut with a single occupant.

(...)

Then he inquired, still courteously, of our purpose in the land of the Insequent.

So, a mountain trek on foot "of many days", leads to their homeland. Its definitely on the same continent as the Land, and not too far away.


And as a comment to Wayfriend i would like to stress that i agree that its a good thing that new people/characters are brought into the story. It would be a bit bisarre if everything stays more or less the same and static throughout ten books, and all the developments of the story happen through retrofitting and retconning of the history and actions of people we already knew. That actually is one of my hangups with the last chrons (maybe even to a smaller degree with the second chrons), that the Land is presented in a very static and unorganic manner.

Its difficult to swallow that so little happens in this fantasy setting full of magic and powers in the time between the protagonists appearances. Its like it just lies waiting for them to come and set things straight. The inhabitants of the Land are reduced from people with insight and valour to some sort of desinterested farmers. And the glory of the world is less than it was, with every summoning.


Sure, if Donaldson needed Insequents at this stage, bring them in! As with SWMNBN the way they fit or jarrs also hinges on HOW they are brought in to the story. To me they have a very distinct feel of deux ex machina. Like i said, with interesting personalities and quirks. But what of that in the end as they are all taken off the stage quickly, just after they have finished their plot purpose as guides to point our heroes in the right direction?

Their magicks are interesting, but also present some believability issues. Time travel, a very dangerous plot device, teleporting, the Harrows hypnotic gaze and invulnerability that in an instant made Linden helpless to resist his ambitions for the ring and staff, and the haruchai totally powerless to interrupt. Foul should have sent a raver to posess this guy, and then gone after every power that he desired and enemy he needed to kill.


The problem as i see it is we have in six books had the internal power dynamics and hierarchies of the land explained to us, in a way that gives the story a sort of internal logical consistancy. To introduce a new set of beings this late, and give them powers that we dont know how they relate to what we already know, is taking a huge risk with your readers.

Effaeldm wrote:May i ask, I haven't seen any direct reply to my story on the previous page here, is it because it's clear and obvious or completely unclear?

I refer to my post four posts below your post

Atrium wrote:the Harrows hypnotic gaze and invulnerability that in an instant made Linden helpless to resist his ambitions for the ring and staff, and the haruchai totally powerless to interrupt. Foul should have sent a raver to posess this guy, and then gone after every power that he desired and enemy he needed to kill.

Hmm...I wonder if the Insequent have much experience with the Ravers? Would this actually work? Or do they have some sort of defenses?

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Atrium wrote:the Harrows hypnotic gaze and invulnerability that in an instant made Linden helpless to resist his ambitions for the ring and staff, and the haruchai totally powerless to interrupt. Foul should have sent a raver to posess this guy, and then gone after every power that he desired and enemy he needed to kill.

Hmm...I wonder if the Insequent have much experience with the Ravers? Would this actually work? Or do they have some sort of defenses?

We know one could undo Demondim and Demondim Spawn, so it wouldn't surprise if there isn't at least one that could do some damage to a Raver.

Horrim Carabal wrote:

Atrium wrote:the Harrows hypnotic gaze and invulnerability that in an instant made Linden helpless to resist his ambitions for the ring and staff, and the haruchai totally powerless to interrupt. Foul should have sent a raver to posess this guy, and then gone after every power that he desired and enemy he needed to kill.

Hmm...I wonder if the Insequent have much experience with the Ravers? Would this actually work? Or do they have some sort of defenses?

Another insequent could show up and say the possessed ones name and order her to follow instructions maybe? They were able to be compelled by name, weren't they? Or am I thinking of something else? If I am thinking of the right thing, then a raver possessing an insequent would be potentially enslaving himself to the rest of the insequent.

Also, I do remember clearly that the insequent used a power that was similar or the same as the power of white gold (whatever that is!) and, now I am fussy again on the details, but weren't foul and his ravers unable to combat white gold magic? They feared it?